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Ella: the really funny thing was I wasn't worried about the Somali pirates. . Like for some reason guns don't really scare me. What, what scares me are things like heights.

Paddy: What,

Ella: I know I picked the best job to have a fear of heights.

You should see me on a climbing wall. It's like la la, la, la la.

Paddy: Pirates are. Chill. But like,

a five 10

Ella: let me

Paddy: That is spooky stuff. I don't even

understand how your brain, heart, body mind works. I

don't get this, but ok

Ella: so I,, So you guys are all like, loads of you guys are dirt bags and just like, just generally just like really kind of hardcore, et cetera. You've gotta understand with scientists is a lot of us adventure scientists we're just like confused as to how we're here.

We're just like, we're just nerds who are really, really into a question and we're just like, no, we're gonna find the answer to this. Even if we are literally dealing with a gun pointed at like, that's okay. We've got a question to answer.

Paddy: Excuse me, uh, sirs and madams with the, uh, rifles. Could you put those

down real

Ella: look at this jawbone, just look at it.

Paddy: questions.

Ella: This jawbone's fascinating

Paddy: you seen, this ape [00:01:00] canine that it was used as a punching tool? I can you, can you, ima No. Put that rifle down. Look at this stone knife.

Ella: You come with me on the next one, right? Because that's really good.

Paddy: yes, I will, I mean, I am gonna have to take out a different insurance

Ella: Oh, don't even get me started on insurance in these places.

MUSIC

Paddy: PADDYO VO:

After I graduated college, I felt a little stuck. I was living back home in Chicago, I had a job, a girlfriend, pals, and spent my weekends hanging in the city doing city things. It was all fine, but something was missing, and I couldn’t put my finger on it … until I visited Colorado for my first ever ski trip. Three days of wiggling on those slopes convinced me to completely upend my life in the Midwest and move to Telluride. It wasn’t just the fun of skiing; the mountains fanned a flame deep within me—it felt elemental, and it [00:02:00] was so strong that I had to do something about it. Once I did, my entire life changed.

I’m sure you’ve heard a version of that story before. Most ski town locals have their own rendition —actually, I’m pretty sure I’ve told you mine a few times on this podcast already. But here's the thing: The very ubiquity of the story is what makes it so interesting. “The mountains are calling and I must go” isn’t just a cute slogan on T-shirts. Our sense of adventure has been past down through generations and goes back to ancient humans who did the exact same thing. It’s in our DNA. And I can prove it. Or, rather, today’s guest, the paleoanthropologist and evolutionary biologist Ella Al-Shamahi can prove it.

Pause Pause

Ella specializes in all things Paleolithic, you know... that period of time beginning three point three million years ago and lasting [00:03:00] two and a half million years, during which humans developed stone tools. This was an absolutely wild time to be alive—Ella says it resembled Lord of the Rings, due to the fact that there were at least 7 species of humans roaming the earth, including the homosapiens from whom we’re all descended. This included three-and-a-half foot tall hobbits and one group with skulls so thick, they are known as Dragon Men. I’m not kidding—Ella gets into all this in dizzying detail in her new 5-part docu-series called “Human”.

So, what does any of this have to do with the outdoors? Well, first of all, Ella is a devoted cyclist and mountain person herself. Second of all, when it comes to exhilaration and risk outside, her research expeditions will put the fish stories you tell your buddies to shame. And, finally—here’s the key point I was trying to make a minute [00:04:00] ago—Ella believes there’s ample evidence to suggest that we’re hard-wired to seek out adventure. Not only that, it’s this genetic predisposition to adventure—along with our superior use of tools, our penchant for complex communities, and our big ol’ noodles—that explains why homo sapiens populated the entire earth and the hobbits and dragon men did not.

When you think of it that way, the only difference between the first humans to cross the sea to Australia and me, post college, is that I spent a lot more money on gear.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

first things first, burnt toast. What's

What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment?

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Ella: my God, there are so many. my problem is that I, I burn myself out so I become very susceptible to infections. so I will, turn up somewhere thinking I'm really strong and then just collapse, kind of just unable [00:05:00] to move or, you know, it, it can get, embarrassing at times.

I once fainted in front of border security in the UAE and like you could tell they thought I was a drug trafficker and they had to like, take me straight to hospital. it was just like,

Paddy: Do you have anything to declare? Yes. I'm so sleepy. And also, can you get me a pillow? I'm about to fall down.

Ella: so, okay. So the problem is there's two versions of me. Okay. And it is really difficult. I'm gonna sound like a, am I allowed to swear on this podcast?

Paddy: you swear want

Ella: forgive me, I'm a Brit. I'm gonna use the word twat. So I, I come across as a complete twat, basically,

Paddy: Yes.

Ella: there's two versions of me.

There's the version of me that's in the field, hardcore, And then there's the version of me that's the television host where they're like, oh, you look too sweaty. You, you can't look. That's what we're still doing. Television. Like, like, you gotta look decent. thing that's really bad about that combination is it's very easy for you to become a princess There are times where I, I, I'm like, oh, I've become too much of a princess. I've lost my edge. I need to go back and do an expedition quick, like a non TV expedition, like a real expedition. As I said, I was at the UAE so [00:06:00] I'd got on this plane, I, it was like, I can't even remember how many continents I'd been in in the past seven days. I was just gone and. I walk off the plane and the team just burst out laughing at me because I look like insane. Like I, I look ridiculous. And I'm like, guys, I do not feel good. My aim is to just get through border security. 'cause we all know that like, if anything happens at border security, they might just not let you into a country.

Right? And I'm sitting there being like, oh God, you just gotta get through. You gotta get through. and then I basically get to the desk and I just blank out. So imagine I've handed the guy my passport and he's saying to me, why are you sweating?

Paddy: Why are, why are you sweating?

Ella: yeah.

What's your problem? Sexist.

Paddy: yeah.

Ella: so I fully blacked out.

I come round, There's all these guys in Arab throbe and I should say that I speak Arabic I can see they're all considering that I might be a drug mule I immediately going to Arabic and I was like, you know, I've just been in Cairo and then I went to London and I guess I've just exhausted the desert's hot.

They literally had to put me in a wheelchair and take me straight to a hospital. And so, and everybody's just [00:07:00] looking at me and I'm like, I'm tough. I promise I work in unstable territories and war zones. Just gimme a second there. Just, I think I've got the norovirus,

Paddy: can I tell you a fun fact about Neanderthals?

Ella: uh,

Paddy: All right. Let's get into this.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

I assume here that hiking to an archeological site in the middle of nowhere is not the same as like going on a fun weekend trail run for you. So how do you recreate

Ella: yeah. So, okay. So it is worth saying that, um, to do my job, which is search for Paleolithic caves. you just can't do it without hiking. So basically we kind of identify certain things on a map. It's kind of, it's kind of fun. It's a bit like a puzzle. So what we're, you know, we, we use all kinds of resources.

Everything from satellite images all the way through to, um, just like gossip from local shepherds.

Kind of gathering all this data, and so then you identify like a side of a mountain.

Do you know what I mean? A particular bit. And you kind of just start wandering

so imagine you are walking, you're just [00:08:00] constantly, constantly walking these landscapes. , And all you're doing is just constantly looking at the floor, because you're looking for stone tools, so you're looking for rocks that are just shaped a little bit differently.

and then every so often you look up and be like. Fuck This's beautiful. But mostly you are just looking at the ground and picking up rocks constantly.

Like it's like walking around with a toddler, basically. It's, it's just, it's very, you're not, you're not going at speed. There's no speed that's happening and it's just constant. and that's kind of in a, in the quickest nutshell that I could possibly give. That is how you do that side of my job, which is just like, you just keep walking. It's a hike with purpose. Does that make sense? Um,

Paddy: yeah, totally. So are you running like a, tracking app?

You know, how many miles are you putting in on a typical day

Ella: not as many as if I was just doing a normal hike. I think that is one of the things that I think it confuses people. So, and also you're doing a very strange kind of hike 'cause you're like, you just kind of wonder, you're like, I'm gonna go in this direction now and I'm gonna go in this direction.

we always keep GPS coordinates really clear for any, anything that looks like [00:09:00] stone tools. Because if you find, just so the audience is, is clear, the listeners are clear. If you find stone tools and if there's a cave nearby, that means that that cave is a really good candidate to go put a test pit in it.

And a test pit is where you go put like a meter by meter for example. Um, and you kind of dig down and you just see if you can find any actual stone stone tools. It might, you know, be a Paleolithic cave potentially. So, do you know what I mean? It's kind of, you are, you are piecing things together. and it's, it's funny because like I come back to London or DC and I don't really do hiking when I'm home. I like walking, every so often I'll be like, in this really urbanized place and I'll, I'll just go into automatic look down mode and I'm like, oh my God, that's a stone tool. And then I'm like, what would a stone tool be doing here?

Paddy: Yeah, that's actually a cigarette, butt what am I doing? Yeah.

Ella: Yeah. Every time. But like, yeah, in the cities, I'm, I'm a cyclist.

Paddy: So in, when you're, when you're away from your field work, then, like on the weekend, right? Let's call it like, in your

civilian life, will you make sure to put in like, oh, this [00:10:00] weekend I'm gonna do a 200 k tour, or something

Ella: it depends on the place. So if it's in London, I'm cycling and it's, you know, I mean the really, like, they're just normal numbers. Then I think it's like 30 kilomet, uh, 30 miles rather, a day. I don't want to get the underground or the subway system to somewhere, so I will just get on my beloved bike. When it comes to mountains, there's something spiritual going on there for me. But I think with everything else it's practical.

It's like I have to hike for, for hours on end. I have to be in this really bizarre environment where we dunno what's going on. Because it's like, this is just my job. Me understanding this territory is my job. Whereas I think mountains are like, oh, I need a mountain right now.

Paddy: So how do you make sure to get to that,

Ella: I'm lucky. I think I have enough stuff going on that there'll be a job somewhere near a mountain and I'll, yeah. And I'll be like, all right, we're hanging out.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: it seems to me that your much of your work is kind of adventure travel to the max, right? To the extreme.

You've said multiple times that you don't do [00:11:00] what you do for work, for the adrenaline

rush, however, I want to point something out. You've crossed pirate infested waters on a cockroach infested ship to get to an island full of bizarre plants

and animals that cannot be found anywhere else, all motivated by a deep tie to your family. And that to me is some real. Lara Croft, tomb Raider type shit. Like you don't wear a fedora and a bull whip.

And I don't think that you've dealt with anything supernatural, but you're giving off some serious Indiana Jones Vibes right now

Ella: I appreciate that.

Paddy: like what fueled that particular trip and what compelled you to make that journey to a tiny island off the coast of Yemen

Ella: yeah, so, I have ended up specializing in what I call, unstable, hostile, or disputed territory. So I've worked in places like Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, the Nagorno Kaaba, and so basically to work in those places, is to have incredibly complicated situations arise. I would [00:12:00] say, look, I love the fact that I have war stories. Let's not pretend I'm in any way humble, you know, I love the fact that if we're sitting at a bar, I'm quietly confident that I've, I've got the good stories.

Does that make sense? I'm just like, I'm like,

Paddy: Yeah,

Ella: oh, I'm sorry. Did the police stop you? Oh. Oh, okay. . I get kicked outta that for sure.

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I'm British, but my parents are from Yemen, and, I think obviously the way most people know Yemen is from, I often say from that incredible television show, the news.

Um, and I think, you know, for people like me though, Yemen is like this. It's just this wonderful place that I would go somewhere in as a kid.

Socotra at the time you couldn't get into at all it, so we were kind at the time, we were being told it was safe once you got there. Socotra is literally this, it's this island that's off Yemen. It's, got these trees called dragons, blood trees.

It looks like something happens in Dr. Sue's novel. Imagine you asked a 6-year-old to draw an island and like, you know, the crazy trees and the crazy reptiles and that is what Socotra, it's [00:13:00] like just, you know, sand dunes that make

Paddy: is some land before time type stuff.

Ella: It is like stepping back in time. Um, anyway, so, uh, there were only three routes to get on the island at the time. We had one option, which was to fly via the mainland of Yemen into, an airport that was, it was the only operational airport at the time.

But it was an Al-Qaeda strong stronghold. The other option was to go via a private jet via the UAE, but to do that you needed really high level clearance. And we, we actually got it, but in oral form, not in written form. And, you know, we've all been there when you turn up somewhere, somebody said you can do it.

And actually we don't have the paperwork. So we were just like, we're not gonna do that. And so the last option was a cement cargo ship via Oman, via sala.

and that was epic because the ship was really, really not fit for purpose. the toilet was like a basket attached to the side of the ship.

it was like welded on in a really questionable fashion. And there was just, just for good measure. They had this really questionable welding and then they also just added some ropes to help this basket to stay

Paddy: just to secure, just, just to be extra

Ella: [00:14:00] epic.

And I'm really tall, so I'm like five foot 10. Um, and I was the only woman on the whole vessel. and clearly designed for short Gujarati sailors. So even if I was like squatting, you could see all of me like it wasn't a good, and I, I've got irritable bowel syndrome, like none of this was good for me and it's a nightmare of a situation.

Paddy: Oh

my

Ella: Um, and you know, and, and to be honest, like it was really funny 'cause um, some of the team were really nervous about the pirates. But the really funny thing was I wasn't worried about the Somali pirates. I, I just, I just wasn't, like for some reason guns don't really scare me. What, what scares me are things like heights.

Paddy: What,

Ella: I know I picked the best job to have a fear of heights.

You should see me on a climbing wall. It's like la la, la, la la.

Paddy: Pirates are. Chill. But a five 10

Ella: let me

Paddy: That is spooky stuff. I don't even

understand how your brain, heart, body mind works. I

don't get this, but

ok

Ella: so So you guys are all like, loads of you guys are dirt bags and just like, just generally just like really kind of hardcore, et cetera. You've gotta understand with scientists is a lot of us adventure [00:15:00] scientists we're just like confused as to how we're here.

We're just like, we're just nerds who are really, really into a question and we're just like, no, we're gonna find the answer to this. Even if we are literally dealing with a gun pointed at like, that's okay. We've got a question to answer.

Paddy: Excuse me, uh, sirs and madams with the, uh, rifles. Could you put those

down real

Ella: look at this jawbone, just look at it.

Paddy: questions.

Ella: This jawbone's fascinating

Paddy: you seen, this ape canine that it was used as a punching tool? I can you, can you, ima No. Put that rifle down. Look at this stone knife.

Ella: You come with me on the next one, right? Because that's really good.

Paddy: yes, I will, I mean, I am gonna have to take out a different insurance

Ella: Oh, don't even get me started on insurance in these places.

This is like, this is one of those most, the most unstructured conversations. I'm so sorry.

Paddy: Also, this is you un-caffeinated. I even imagine you with a pot of coffee in you. This is,

Ella: Uh, yeah. Sorry mate. Sorry.

Paddy: Oh, no, it's the best. [00:16:00] This is great.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

I have some, fun questions

to bridge the gap of your work and, outdoor culture as a paleo anthropologist, evolutionary biologist, and an avid outdoors person.

Of all the hominin you've studied, other than homo sapiens, which, or who I guess would be the best at what outdoor sports like would Homo floresiensis I think

Ella: floresiensis, but good attempt Just call them the Hobbit.

Paddy: A. Yeah. AKA.

The hobbits. Would they be great climbers because of their strength to weight ratio? Would Neanderthals make for great ultra runners? Would homoerectus be good at skiing

Ella: Okay. I love this. I love this. Okay. All right, so let me think off the cuff on this one. So, uh, for those of you who dunno, Homo floresiensis is the hobbit species. So they're basically about three and a half feet tall. So they're basically the size of four year olds, all penguins. And they lived on this one island in Indonesia.

Paddy: Super long arms. [00:17:00] Incredibly

big feet. Short legs correct?

Ella: They're just kind of, they're, they're, they're small. They're proportions don't really make sense. So actually their feet. Like if you took their feet separately, you would be, you wouldn't be like, oh, giant feet. But it's just proportional their feet and their lower, half of their limbs are just so strange.

Like the proportions just don't add up. There is an argument that suggests that they were probably built for like mountainous rugged terrain. Like their proportions are kind of good for that. The Neanderthals are kind of shorter, they're stouter, they've got brute force.

So I would say, um, the Neanderthals are probably really good at short distance. Not long distance. We are the long distance. Yeah, we are the long distance guys. We were adapted for our landscapes, which are more African and therefore kind of these long distances, whereas the Neanderthals are kind of, it's all about brute force.

It's all about short distances. If we were gonna do a marathon, I think I'd, I'd bet on us if we were doing a short sprint, I'd definitely bet on them.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: A key to human survival has been our ability to make and use tools. And I think it's like remarkable to observe early and basic tools [00:18:00] transform into more sophisticated ones, like my favorite prehistoric tool and one of the most fun words in the English language to say the atlatl. Then There are things like the discovery fire, the creation of intricate structure, building of course the invention of the wheel. With all that you know about tools being a keystone to our survival. Do you ever look at things like a climbing harness, ski binding Gore-Tex jackets, road bike, things like that and think, how the hell did we get here

Ella: it, okay. So, this is a massive obsession. Because we owe everything to, the accumulation of culture from the ancients. Does that make sense? Like you had to do? Yeah. So, okay. So, um, if you imagine you might look at what looks like just, you know, I, I've shown stone tools to friends who have just gone, Ella, we think that's just a stone.

The thing is, they might look really, really basic when you compare it to all the incredible tech that we have today, except that our tech today [00:19:00] wouldn't exist if it wasn't for those ancient ancestors kind of slowly accumulating technology. one of the best ways I find to put it, is that if you were to put Steve Jobs.

If you were to dump him 50,000 years ago, he would never have invented the iPhone. He just wouldn't because he needed like 50,000 years of people inventing, perfecting, tinkering, um, with all of these inventions. So often we've been told the absolute lie of the lone genius that we are where we are as a society. 'cause there's a few geniuses and like, nah, it's all of us. By and large, invention is the result of the collective.

There's this concept called cumulative culture, and it's the idea that you accumulate culture.

So every generation builds upon the previous generations, you know, what you see it, it around you is the result of essentially a hugely cooperative species. And that's really lovely to think. 'cause we always see ourselves as this, like, you know, these war mangers and blah, blah, blah. That is one side of us. But like paddy in all truth, like we also are really, really cooperative.

We work together, we learn together, you know? and so I actually think when I look at our technology today, I can't help it. I look at our technology today and I'm just like, wow, [00:20:00] isn't it incredible? What is possible? Um, when you have that many people working together, that many people cooperating?

PUASE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: You've also talked about, wanderlust and the drive for exploration. Being in our DNA and ultimately a reason, our species was able to adapt and survive. Now, wanderlust is a term that gets kind of eyerolling used or

Ella: Let 'em roll. Let 'em roll.

Paddy: Yeah. you know what I mean? It's like a hashtag

for that.

Like, manicured Instagram, outdoor

life. , But despite that, how exactly has it led to our

Ella: yeah. So, okay, , it's worth just saying something really that's really obvious to, to us. 'cause obviously you've seen a bit the show, but, um, this is a really unusual time for humans because only one species of human walks this earth.

So previously we shared the planet with many, many species of human and Neanderthals and the hobbits and homoerectus, all these other species, right? So we're like one of many. And what you saw with all of those species, including us, is that by and large we were regional species. You know, the Neanderthals were in Europe and into Central Asia, like even the ones that [00:21:00] were kind of spread quite far, even in their heyday would only be like Africa, Asia.

Into Europe. Like it wasn't, you were never covering Australia. You were never in the Americas. No species of human ever made it to Australia or the Americas, except for us. And we didn't do it for a really, really long time. So we kept trying to leave Africa and we kept failing, uh, existing outside of Africa.

and then eventually around 60,000 years we succeeded and we started succeeding. big. and we did this thing that I think is so remarkable, so Australia is the first large landmass that humans, no human species had ever entered into.

and we entered into it, but there was no lamb bridge, so we did it. basically by crossing a vast ocean, it would've taken a few days to cross and they would've been doing it on rafts because nobody had invented boats at that point. So they were just doing it on bits of wood. And we think it wasn't like, you know, five teenagers kind of doing a rite of passage.

We think it was hundreds of people. It was like families crossing. First of all, let's just take a second to think about that. You dunno what's on the other side and you just go [00:22:00] for it. And I think traditionally the thing that has been said is that, you know, they were after resources and I'm like, go away.

Go away. It is not just resources, you do not take on a risk like that. Just for Yeah, because it's not like they were starving where they were. There would've been like, you know, there wasn't a population problem. yes, they were comfortable on the water, but that many days just going in one direction.

No idea what's no.

Paddy: Also the fact that it wasn't, like you said, it wasn't just like, you know, five teenagers out for a

Ella: This is it.

Paddy: it. was hundreds and hundreds of families

like, What is that? conversation

Ella: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paddy: Bob's got an idea. Everybody sit

Ella: oh my God. Can I just, I have, I am obs like, okay. Obsessed with so thing, but that point I'm obsessed with. 'cause you know, in that group, some of them were like, we are not going with Bob. Bob's always got crazy

Paddy: yeah, Yeah. You are Like you're like, Bob's an idiot. I'm not going that guy yet. Totally. I'm not going with

that idiot. And then all of a sudden, hundreds and

hundreds of families have created essentially like these huckleberry [00:23:00] fin rafts for open ocean crossing and are like, we got you Ba

Bob, you're so smart.

Ella: And Bob's first wife is sitting there being like, no, I'm not going and go away. I'm marrying your brother. Like. Like, and, and by the way, I'm being facetious, but I I'm telling you, this would've happened. Like, as in like I think it would've caused like a certain amount of division. Now here's where it gets really interesting for me.

'cause I just think when we tell archeology traditionally, and certainly when we tell human evolution, uh, stories of human evolution, we kind of just go and then they did it for resources. And it's like, come on guys. We do something sometimes because we are just like, what's on the other side?

I wonder. That's it.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

More from paleoanthropologist Ella Al-Shamahi after the break.

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Paddy: The other interesting thing about the new Series Human is that you discuss things that are like very physical in terms of why we survived, homo sapiens, you know, our big

giant brains. Right. You also talk about things though, that are [00:24:00] rooted in emotion, like ritual and empathy. So how has Emotionality helped us survive and where do you think that wanderlust and that drive for adventure fits into

Ella: So what's interesting about the crossing to Australia is that the very first figurative art that we've ever discovered in the world is actually in Indonesia. Um, and it's a, it's a wild boar. So humans went from like squiggly lines and hand prints to suddenly drawing what is a wild boar that I could not have drawn.

Like it's a good wild boar. And I put to you a species that has the imagination and creativity to go, I see an animal there, I'm gonna put it on a wall like I'm going to do. Like, no other species of human has done that. Like Neanderthals weren't doing that. Homoerectus wasn't, the hobbits weren't. It's a kind of creativity where you see beyond what's in front of you.

And I cannot help but think that those families, those people standing on those shores about to cross to Australia. What made us the explorer species is that we are also the creative species. You, they could sit there [00:25:00] and, and look at an open ocean and go. I can imagine that there might be a piece of land out there, and I could build a life for myself and my family.

And I think they were probably able to do that in a way that the other species of human was not able to do. That is my best guess. Um, and I also think the huge advantage of our species is that our tool use is exceptional. So all the other species, by and large, they were heavily reliant upon their bodies to be adapted to the geography they were in.

Whereas we kind of like, we did something, there was a switch, and we suddenly started going, all right, our body might not be adapted for this, but you know what, we can probably build a stone tool or kind of build the right kind of thing. That means that we can be adapted to this environment. And so suddenly it meant looking at Australia and going, eh, we'll find a way of living there.

Paddy: It is wild to me because here's the thing that I often wonder about, When and how do we go from worrying about our immediate safety, right? I need water, I need food, I need shelter. And we get so secure in that, that we invent the pursuit of joy,

of [00:26:00] outdoor fun.

Like where does recreation begin for us? And how exactly does that fit into the equation of the keystones of our survival?

Ella: I, I mean, look, we are in territory right now that is still a little bit speculative, but is also based on facts, but it's just how you interpret it. But,

There are a number of people, including me, who think, That there is something going on with the childhood of homo sapiens that gave us an edge.

So homo sapiens have the longest relative childhood of any species that has ever existed. Like our kids take forever to reach adulthood. And if you think about it logically, evolution should have surely weeded that out because that's an absolute nightmare for the mother and father.

They're constantly raising these kids that just won't grow up, they won't leave the nest, et cetera, et cetera. But I think two things are going on. One is our brains and the kind of societies we exist in mean that we need to learn a lot more. Right? It's not like, uh, you know, like famously the giraffes can stand after 30 minutes of like being born, right?[00:27:00]

Paddy: Oh Yeah, totally. Yeah, which is wild. It's like I take a six foot

header, that's my first thing into this world. I just take a six foot drop onto my dome, and then a half an hour later I'm like, all right, well, I know where to go to eat and I can get there by running already.

Whereas we are just big, just

skin bags of goo when we're born. And then there's the, you know, the, the whole fourth trimester,

Ella: it doesn't make sense except if you think, hold on a second. Living in a highly, highly social cooperative species requires a lot of rules. It requires not just rules, but understanding like your facial expression. You did this with your, ah, that means you're not happy. Alright? Um, you copied like that.

How can I copy? It's like all these like unsaids that you have to learn and said and I think to do that you need a longer childhood. And I think the other thing that happens as well is if you are in childhood longer, you can play more, you can be creative more. And I think that gave us an edge as a species.

This isn't just me as a loads of people think this,

[00:28:00] So I just think ironically to explore is to be a homo sapien. to be imaginative and creative is to be a homo sapien, to be emotional, is to be a homo sapiens. to imagine a different life for yourself and to go out there and try and do it. We Somehow find a way

PAUSE PUASE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Can you tell me what we now think the dawn of humanity really

looked like with the magnificent seven overlap, the seven different

Ella: Yeah.

Paddy: of humans existing at the same time,

Ella: So we think there were at least six other species. I honestly think that is a, a massive underestimate. I think we're at the kind of tip of the iceberg. Yeah, almost certainly. Imagine what that would've been like to have existed in a world. Where you would every so often bump into another species of human. would you have known how different they were?

Would you have, felt threatened by them? Would you have felt friendly towards them? Uh, my own guess is that it probably would've been a mix of, you know, depending on what was going on, if it was a time of plenty, you're probably more friendly with them. Um, there's probably always some uncle in the group that likes to talk to [00:29:00] randoms and, and he was going off talking to random.

I, I, you know, it's, it's, that's what we're like.

Paddy: Bob again. Come on, Bob. Stop talking to the

Neanderthals. We gotta go fishing.

Ella: Know what, I love is we should pitch a TV series, which is just bob through time. They're all the, all the crazy inventions. We just a result of Bob.

Paddy: Bob, the weird prehistoric uncle. Yes.

Ella: Oh my God, I love it.

PUASE PAUSE PASUE PAUSE

So we think we started at least around 300,000 years ago. and we basically were born into this world of loads and loads of other species of human. Um, you had Homo Heidelbergensis and homeowner ledi, um, in Africa. So we were started in Africa. so we we would've been bumping into them for sure.

Um, and then as we left Africa, in the Middle East, we immediately met the Neanderthals. then we were meeting the Devans as well, who were in the far East. the Devans are also known as Dragon Man or Homo Longe. And then, even further you had Homoerectus. And then on that one island in Flores, there was, the Hobbit.

And actually we now know that there was a second, we think hobbit like species, but on an island in, uh, in the Philippines. Yeah. So this is [00:30:00] what I mean. They just keep finding new species. It's real fun. , and we just have no idea what our reaction was we were making war with them. We don't know probably at times. we were making love with them. Yes, . but we also don't know the nature of that love. Do you know what I mean?

Like, was it like, oh those are the bad boy andels down the road. Um, or would it, we just have no idea. Like we've literally got no clue. We've got no clue what was going on.

Paddy: no rom-com

Ella: No, no, there's no, but I guess one of the things, like I say in the series is because we know that loads of the hybrids survived because, um, well we are here and loads of other hybrids.

So, um, if you think about it, everybody from outside of Africa has about 2% Neanderthal, DNA. Some people, uh, certainly outside Subsaharan Africa, and the people inside Subsaharan Africa have a little bit of Neanderthal DNA as well, some of them. so it means that one of our ancestors was half, half, like one of our ancestors had a Neanderthal parent and a homo sapien, parent.

Paddy: Why did we win, I guess is the right word? Was it because we [00:31:00] had our big giant brains? Were we better at adapting? Was it because of that? Kind of like in our DNA pursuit of adventure. Pursuit of exploration?

Ella: Brain size is important, but Neanderthals have a similar size brain to us. And if it's just about brain size, then like bluntly, elephants and um, whales would be listening to this podcast. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not just brain size. What we do know is there were a lot more homo sapiens than there were Neanderthals. And if there's more of you, there's more people to sit there inventing. You know, the example I usually give is like, if your tribe is just 20 of you and one of you invents a pound cake, it's probably gonna say a pound cake for a really, really long time.

If there's like, sorry, I'm obsessed with cake. If there's like 2000 of you in the tribe, that pound cake is gonna become a red velvet much quicker, right? I also do think luck had a part to play.

Paddy: That's my

next

Ella: it did.

Paddy: what's also interesting to me here, about Homo sapiens global spread is what I perceive as being the combination of both skill

and luck, which is kind of not too [00:32:00] dissimilar from a lot of outdoor

pursuits. Like take for instance, backcountry skiing. There's a saying that snow doesn't care if you're an expert or an idiot.

Meaning that when traveling an avalanche terrain, you can have all the tools, you can have all the skill, you can have all the knowledge, but a life altering accident can still really

happen at any moment. So given that, how much of our survival is similar to something like that, how much is luck and how much is skill?

Is there any way to calculate that?

Ella: I don't think there is a way to calculate it, but I do think it's a combination. We like to think that it was all just our own genius and all our own creativity and all our whatever. We were lucky in having been an African species to begin with.

The Neanderthals, they're stuck in these cold climates. Cold climates are just harder to operate in, you know? . When we first started 300,000 years ago, we were the underdog. We weren't exceptional. What you start seeing is around a hundred thousand years, you start seeing a shift in us. You start seeing a change in behavior, you start seeing our technology getting so much better.

You start seeing, um, creativity. Very slowly [00:33:00] something was shifting in our brains

but even then, like even at a hundred thousand, if you lined us up and said who's gonna make it? I don't think you would've pointed it as, I'm not necessarily, but what you see is that, we weren't doing that well. Like, you know, we'd go into European territory, Ersel territory, we'd go into Asia and then we'd disappear.

We wouldn't work, you know, it was only around 60,000 that you start seeing those slow changes that started accumulating a hundred thousand really take effect. What you then see at 60,000 is a species that goes and takes over the whole world. Like you see an exodus of we think maybe as few as 10,000 people and they go and they literally populate the rest of the world for me it's really fascinating and humbling to think that like this species that was born into a world of many and was this underdog and was just never doing very well, with time just became not just the only survivor, but.

The most dominant form of life on Earth. Like, if I was going to invent a character, like if I had to invent a protagonist, that's a pretty epic story. You know? it's not a normal one at all. And, and I think it, it, [00:34:00] certainly gives me pause.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: It's been described to me that if the Empire State Building represented the timeline of Earth's existence, a postcard placed on top would represent humanity's time on Earth,

which To me.

simultaneously creates this feeling of luck and of significance, and of course, deafening

insignificance. So when you think about this in regard to your work, have you learned something that has helped answer the big questions? Why are we here? What's our purpose? What's the meaning of life?

Ella: For me, I have to say, it always comes back to us being this really cooperative species. Collectively, we need each other. We need community. Not just, we evolved for it. It is the key to our success that we have community in the way that we do.

I think we are here year through a combination of random chance and also, having got really, really good at adapting to the worlds that we live in and being able to think outside of the [00:35:00] box. And I, I will say there's this one other point when we talk about the modern world and that increasingly we all know it, we're increasingly living in a hyperpolarized world.

Um, it's not fun, you know? Um, and the irony of that is we're more polarized and yet we're more lonely because, of course, we're, we, our tribe is now a lot of people online who don't actually live near as often. and actually your neighbor knowing you and being part of your tribe is more beneficial for, for you in terms of health outcomes.

'cause they're the ones who are gonna, you know, be able to keep you alive, et cetera. And one of the things that I've really kind of been rallying about over the summer, um, I just wrote a Washington Post op-ed about is to understand the nature of tribalism. And I have to say that is something that because I've studied the subjects that I've studied, it's kind of given me a lot of understanding for it.

People, by and large, have the opinions of their tribe. You just do. Right? And so sometimes people are like, why don't people believe the science? It's like, cause their whole tribe doesn't believe in that one bit of science. do you think they're gonna believe you a stranger in a lab coat, or are they gonna believe the people that they know and love?

And it gives me a [00:36:00] lot of empathy for people when they have positions that I'm like, that's a ludicrous idea. Even sometimes opinions, which I find a little bit disgusting, you know, or which I find a little bit offensive or whatever. I'm like, I have empathy for where that idea comes from.

Uh, in some ways because it's like, well they are just aligning themselves with the people they know and love. And guess what? That desire to align yourself with your people that is in our DNA, that comes from the Paleolithic. And it makes sense because there were no loners in the Paleolithic. To go against your tribe was a death sentence back in the Paleo thing.

And once you understand that, I feel Paddy personally that it gives you a certain amount of empathy for somebody's position, and it just means that then in the conversations, I'm not sitting there being like, you have to agree with me. I'm like, you know what? Let's just chat like humans.

Paddy: yeah,

Ella: hopefully will mean that you don't see me as a scientist who's just a shill.

And hopefully I see a person who has reasons for the beliefs that they have.

Paddy: This has been a fascinating conversation. and what You just said perfectly rolls into my final question for [00:37:00] you.

You know, I've asked this question or a version of it to a few folks who have come on the show who are experts in

humanity or culture, or both in one way or another.

And I wanna ask you as well, right now, I think many of us feel like humanity's survival is at a flashpoint. And with the current news cycle, our existence can also far too often seem desperate. Devastating, hopeless with your years of study and expertise, especially around behavioral adaptation, do you have any message of hope? about our now and about our future?

Ella: I would say that, um, just because I know the past doesn't necessarily mean I can predict the future. Although if I could, let me tell you, that would be quite handy.

Paddy: Yeah.

Ella: but I think if we can understand that community is everything, community is where we got to where we are, I think that will help us greatly [00:38:00] because all of the solutions that we need are gonna have to come via cooperation I actually started off, um, by going to college to study human evolution.

'cause I was a creationist and I didn't believe in it. Some people have seen that. It's like, oh, see, that's hopeful. People can change their minds. My story tells you how difficult it is to leave your tribe and how much more toxic the world becomes when we become this hyperpolarized world.

and I know some people kind of wanna be purists and they're like, you know what? I just don't, I don't wanna deal with other people's, whatever. And I'm like, okay, but then you've gotta work on some kind of community thing. ' cause community is everything and we are not getting out of any of this stuff without community.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Paddy: . it is now time for the final

ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without.

Ella: a, a sat phone? I'm being serious. We're not playing sat phone.

Paddy: tons of sense that I was maybe thinking because of your field of study, like mortar and pestle, like something like, you know, a, a tooth tool

or

Ella: I'm like I can. No, it's dangerous. Sat phone. [00:39:00] Yeah.

Paddy: Best outdoor snack.

Ella: Eggs don't judge me.

Paddy: Um, I am a hundred percent going to judge you. What are you talking like raw eggs or are you timeout? Are you bringing hard boiled eggs out on like a road cycle or a

Ella: Soft, soft boiled eggs. Everybody knows I'm a soft boiled egg. There are pictures of me.

Paddy: that because you're English? This is the most

English answer for, I take a soft

boil

Ella: are, I cannot

Paddy: that is

Ella: enough. There are pictures of me in every single, there's a picture picture of me on a glacier with eggs and like eggs rolling down the glacier and me being like, oh shit. I'm just done.

Paddy: in the shell.

Like, do you have the fancy, like soft boiled?

Ella: no, no, we're still in the field. No, no, no,

Paddy: the dish.

Ella: just basically, you just bring eggs with you everywhere you go. And then, and then basically they're boiled in the morning. You do them a soft boil, and then you pack them. You have like, you pack them along. I literally,

Paddy: And what do you, you carry around bubble wrap with you

eggs. What are you, talking about? [00:40:00]

Ella: you bring, a box of Tupperware. I, I, I will die on this hill.

Paddy: This is when you have, you have left all of us. You are out on your own. You're the only

one on

Ella: tell you eggs, first of all, eggs will stay okay in a, in a carton. Like raw eggs will stay okay in a carton for a long time.

Paddy: That's what you want. I, how's that snack? It is okay. Oh my

God.

Ella: And, and then if you wanna be really, really, really smart, what I do is we soft boil the eggs, put them in the Tupperware, and then just sprinkle salt onto the shells.

and let me tell you, everybody wants some of my bloody eggs. So don't even, don't even.

Paddy: what's funny is we started this whole conversation of like, you're like, I'm really kind of embarrassed 'cause this is gonna make me sound bougie. Um, Ella, I've got some news for you. you. soft boiled queen.

Ella: Yeah, because let me tell you, they're very rarely soft boiled because you can't get it right in the field. So they're almost always hard boiled. And it's like, it's just like, you're like, ah, that's

Paddy: Yeah. But are you in like a humid ass jungle? [00:41:00] Just crushing

soft boiled

Ella: yeah, I mean, soft boiled eggs, eggs, eggs are a staple. I was, eggs are really a staple.

Paddy: Don't even know if I need to ask this next question. What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Ella: I am considered to be insane and to be an adrenaline junkie because I go off and work in unstable and hostile territories. And cave divers. I'm sorry. That is the most dangerous, the most risky, any of my, so I, I work in caves, but I don't touch the water in the caves.

Paddy: Yeah.

Ella: all know how risky that is. And let me tell you, all the scientists that do kind of that water spelunking type stuff, none of them.

Paddy: No.

Ella: Are given blanket bans on their research. None of them have their universities, their funding bodies, like basically go, you are not allowed to do this.

It's too risky. I'm told my work is too risky. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I call bullshit. Like I call bullshit.

Paddy: I'm all about this

hot take. because cave diving is absolutely

terrifying.

Ella: and yet. my stuff is considered, you know, I've got friends that work on venomous snakes that do, um, underwater, like deep sea [00:42:00] water. All of that has risk associated with it. And what their universities, colleges, funding buddies basically tell them to do is like, okay, explain to me that you understand the risks, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There's all this stuff involved. And I'm like, with me, by and large, it's a blanket ban.

Paddy: who are these universities

Ella: most, most most western universe.

Paddy: I, I have some strong

opinions that I would like to, say to these

professors.

Ella: is, you know.

Paddy: You, you nerds. I said it. There it is.

You give Ella her Classroom.

and you give her her funding, and if not, you're gonna have a big old pissed off mustached Irishman

Ella: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

Paddy: You can take your cave diving and

Ella: All right.

I feel like I've got a vocal spokesperson here for this,

Paddy: I am, I am fired up.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

Ella Al-Shamahi is is a paleoanthropologist, evolutionary biologist, writer, and television presenter. When she's not cycling around DC or London, you can find her...well, it'll actually be [00:43:00] really hard to find her becuase she's likely in some farflung local as we speak, walking near the mouth of a cave, looking at the ground for stone tools and signs of humanity's Lord of the Rings era. Better just turn on the tube. Ella is the host of the new TV show, Human, streaming on PBS dot org and the PBS App. Tune in because it is so damn great. It'll blow your mind. Follow Ella's studies and adventures on Instagram at Ella underscore Alshamahi.

And as a reminder, please remember that we want to hear from you, because we're makin' this daggone thang for ya. Email your pod reactions, guest nominations, the answer to the question: if your ear was a mouth would it eat regular food or things like Q-tips?, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to �����ԹϺ��� Podcast At �����ԹϺ��� Inc Dot [00:44:00] Com.

The �����ԹϺ��� Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "I'd be friggin king of that gulldarn hobbit island, let me tell you what" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

The �����ԹϺ��� Podcast is made possible by our �����ԹϺ��� Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself at �����ԹϺ��� Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.