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Paddy: I love the book. It was such an enjoyable read., You didn't write about this, but since you worked with him, and I believe that means that you guys like text all the time.

Obama grew up in Hawaii, one of surfing's global and historic epicenters. So I assume you were like asking Obama for surfing tips while you were learning to surf. Is this correct?

David: So like anybody who has written a book and worked for President Obama, I have, you know, tried to channel my way in, sent, send him a book, and I think he would actually like this one because it is, there's a Hawaii element, there's a surfing element. It's interesting. I have to assume that he has taken surf lessons or surfed at some point, but I also, I remember there was like, video and footage of him body surfing.

Paddy: yeah.

David: I, if he was a surfer, I think I would know. But I also think as somebody who is like a surfer in one's head, I, I think that's all, you know, there's, there's lots of types of surfer.

Paddy: So are you trying to say that you think Obama's a boogie [00:01:00] boarder?

David: MUSIC

PADDYO INTRO VO:

I'm not sure exactly when or why it started but ever since I was a kid, surfing has captivated me. But when you grow up just outside of Chicago that captivation means you get yelled at by the lifeguards at the local pool for running on the deck as you attempt to skim the water on a kick board instead of actually hanging ten on real life waves.

Even though I live in Colorado, I've been lucky enough to actually try surfing twice in adulthood. Most recently, I spent three days last summer instructed by longboard legend Kassia Meador, a childhood hero of mine. I fell ass over tea kettle more times than I can count, was bounced off the ocean floor, had to use a human-sized shoe horn to squooze myself into a wetsuit, and then deal with the [00:02:00] embarassment of walking around the beach looking like a 6foot 5inch microwaved hot dog. ... ... And I loved every damn second of it. Surfing, even when you are getting completely worked, has a way of making you smile in objectively terrible situations. But I had no idea that surfing could be a means to better understand the confusing people in our lives, and maybe even the American culture war. For that, you need former senior speech writer to President Obama, and current new surfer, David Litt.

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After moving from Washington DC to the Jersey Shore, and feeling the need for a jolt of life amidst the pandemic, David Litt took up surfing. At 35 years old. So David, being the sensible Yale-educated, New York Times best selling author he is, enlisted the help of a surf coach, many surf coaches in fact, and chief among them was his [00:03:00] tattoed, truck driving, death metal enthusiast, Joe Rogan superfan, brother-in-law, Matt. And what followed was a sun burnt, sea salt-kissed comedy of errors, which became the basis of David's brand new book "It's Only Drowning: A true story of learning to surf and the pursuit of common ground."

The book is a hilarious retelling of David's learning process. But, on a deeper level, it's an examination of the current American culture war, the roles David and his brother-in-law have been cast into, and how, as unlikely as it would seem, a sport like surfing can help bridge the fissures of class and culture.

Turns out, the best way to help us rethink the boundaries we put around ourselves and each other is to get smacked around by a buncha waves. Who knew?

First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?

So I am recording this from [00:04:00] Asbury Park, New Jersey, where it's switched from like early spring to late spring. And if you are surfing, that means I went from the like big, like intense changing poncho, the thick one, while I'm changing in and outta my wetsuit in the parking lot to the thin one. Hadn't used the thin one in a while.

I was in the process of getting out of my wetsuit when I discovered that the thin changing poncho, has pockets, but for some reason they just opened to the air. And I discovered this while my wetsuit was around my ankle. So I was like doing, I was like hopping up and down, trying to peel this thing off in the parking lot and of course, right, if you're a surfer, and especially if you're me, you started surfing later in life, you wanna look cool or at least not uncool, and you definitely don't want to flash.

A whole parking lot full of better surfers plus a residential neighborhood. And the worst part of all of this was that when I realized what was happening, my thought was not like, oh no, it was not. Again, that's a terrible thing to happen when you, when you [00:05:00] humiliate yourself and you're like, oh, I guess it's Wednesday.

Paddy: I gotta, I gotta figure out this public nudity thing.

David: I, yeah, it's, it's really top of the list. It's a high priority. And yet,

Paddy: that is nothing like a little classy public nudity to start your day

David: yeah, that, that's what I always say.

Paddy: Alright, let's get into it.

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You grew up in New York City, went to prep school and then Yale flunked out of a CIA interview process for smokin' the devil's lettuce you've written for, lemme check my notes here. Every major and fancy outlet ever, everyone from the New York Times to The Onion, funny or Die to the Atlantic.

And oh, by the way, just a little thing called the Obama White House as a speech writer. And now you're on the outside podcast because you wrote a book about surfing. David, how in the hell did you get here? Do you know how you got here? What is going on?

David: I think that is [00:06:00] basically the central question of the book, right? Is like, how did someone like me? And, you know, uh, uh, I, I've always been like an outdoors person. I've skied since I was like six. But I, I am not a natural surfer. And the worst part of all this is that I was at a, a book event, , before the book came out and someone came up to me and they said, I'm so glad you're here.

'cause people say stuff when they write a book about surfing. They're like, you know, I'm not a natural surfer, but then I saw you in person. And I was like, oh no, he's, he's serious. I was like, that's

Paddy: I'm so glad that I came to your, uh, your book signing because I, I, it, it delivered the, uh, the facts to me. You are as unathletic as you've described yourself to me. Did, did that hurt?

David: Uh, yes, of course that hurt. I I did ask for it. I mean, that's the flip side. When you write a book about a humbling experience. You can't totally be like, how dare you point out that I don't belong out here. but to answer your question, how did I end up here? I mean, the short answer is during the pandemic, and I think a lot of us went through [00:07:00] this.

I basically spent like a year on the couch drinking wine and playing PlayStation and came out of it feeling pretty depressed. Like I've always been a very anxious person. When I worked in the, the White House, I needed a special mouth guard. 'cause I ground my teeth so intensely in my sleep that like I would chew through the regular mouth

Paddy: oh my God.

David: Which in Washington, DC is like a badge of honor, right? It's like I work so hard that I'm destroying my life. So people are very proud and they're like jealous, but in the real world, uh, not so great. And then during the pandemic that went from anxiety to like legitimate depression and I was really looking to do something new at a time when I couldn't imagine doing anything honestly.

And we had moved to the Jersey Shore, my wife and I, she's from here and my brother-in-law surfs and he's a crazy person. So I never imagined myself surfing. In fact, I was like, okay, I know I will never surf 'cause he does. But as I was looking for just something to get out of this rut, I kind of [00:08:00] like wandered into a surf shop in Asbury Park called The Glide, and I signed up for surf Lessons originally I kept surfing 'cause it was an antidote to depression. Right. It was just too frightening and physically challenging to be depressed. But like a lot of people, I would, I would say 95% of people who started surfing. I was like, oh no, what if I just dropped this and, and did this from now on?

And I couldn't do that. But I couldn write a book, so I was like, all right, this is a good, it's a good halfway point.

Paddy: I love the book. , It was such a fabulous, fabulous read. I have so many, you know, arrows in pencil to the margins. You know where I just wrote, ha ha ha ha. There were some points where I put the book down on my chest and grabbed my face 'cause I was laughing out loud.

It's also a very heartwarming read, along with ha ha ha in the margins, I also drew hearts and smiley faces like more than once. Early in the book, you write that by becoming a better surfer, you believe you're gonna become a better person.

How and why did you have that hypothesis so early on in the [00:09:00] learning process?

David: Well, you, you surf, right?

Paddy: I've been obsessed with surfing and surf culture since I was a very small human, and I've surfed a handful of times, which essentially means that I've been in a wetsuit and had my ass handed to me, for a handful of days.

David: yeah, I, I know the feeling. Um, even if you've only surfed a handful of times, you probably have had the experience of immediately being like, oh, this reminds me about surfing. I. Or reminds me of surfing no matter what you're

Paddy: sure. Yeah.

David: And for me, it was a moment when I was, I was taking a lesson in Spring Lake, New Jersey with this guy who was like maybe 19.

And I used to be the one who was very frightening to people because I was very young. And then somehow it switched, right? I was like, you are

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah. But nobody, but nobody tells you. Right. You don't get the memo like you have now crossed the threshold old ass.

David: Actually this was my memo. It was literally, it was him being like, oh, I've surfed forever, you know, like seven years since I was in eighth grade or something like that. Right? It was like, oh, that's the memo. I, I am not a young [00:10:00] person anymore and you are somehow responsible for my life. but as we had this, this lesson, and he was actually a really good instructor and at the end He kinda gave me this look as though he was the old and wise one and he looked into my eyes and he was like, just remember when I started out, which keep in mind was like, you know, when he was 12, but he was like, when I started out, the thing I had to keep telling myself was, every wipe out makes you a little better, right?

When you wipe out, instead of getting frustrated, you have to just say, I'm a better surfer than I was before that wipe out and I was still in the middle of this post pandemic depression and I started applying that to everything in my life, right? It was like, okay, I didn't get as much done today as I wanted, but just getting up and, you know, getting through some of the to-do list.

I am a better writer than I was before, right? I burned that steak very badly in the oven and there was a minor fire. I'm a better cook than I was before, and I started to think that way and I realized, hey, I got a little better at surfing and it made me a little better at [00:11:00] life. And so what if I got a lot better at surfing, you know, by extension.

I, I think that could be pretty meaningful that was the genesis, I think of the book right before that. I was thinking, okay, I wanna surf and I wanna get better at it. But then I was like, Hey, there's this, there's something here that both is like a good story that I feel like I've found myself in.

And also something where I, I think and hope that whether you have surfed your, your entire life or you've never touched a board and never want to, you're like, okay, I can relate to that part of it. Like that story is in some way my story too, and that's the stuff I like to read. So I was like, okay, maybe this is the kind of thing I could write.

Paddy: I think one of the things that's so relatable about it is that you do pull the curtain back from, how you navigate the world. Let's say like the book to me revealed you as a very cerebral person and often a very worried person. There are many, many scenes in the book chronicling you what I like to call Disasterbating Um, how much of your life is spent thinking [00:12:00] about and preparing for interactions and events versus how much of your life is spent living in your boots actually being present?

David: Well, I've never heard that phrase before I'm gonna immediately, once we're, once we're done recording this podcast, go tell my wife about this. 'cause she's gonna be like, now I have a very disturbing way of describing how you spend far too much time.

But it's, but it is a, like that is unfortunately, I'm like, oh no, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I think for me right there, it's true, especially as a writer, uh, to some extent, that's your job, right? Is just to think about stuff too

Paddy: sure,

David: And I am good at that. Um, I mean, when I was, when I was in, when I was four years old, it was during the.

First Gulf War, and I was absolutely sure that Saddam Hussein was going to come out of my toilet and strangle me. I don't know why I came up with this, but I was certain of this fact, and I was like, I prepared, I, I knew Saddam's rules, right? Like I have always been an overthinker. Sometimes that's been helpful [00:13:00] and, and I would say more often it's not.

And a huge part of this book, honestly, was about me trying to learn how to be ambitious and driven and have things I want out of life without worrying incessantly. And I'm not perfect at it, but I'm so much better at it than I was my. Theory of surfing is there's just no room for realism in surfing, right?

Like, if you are a realist, you're like, I shouldn't be here. Especially if you're, you know, somebody who picked up the sport as an adult, right? You're like, realistically, this is ba everything about this is bad and going to go poorly. Or very least, maybe it's 50 50. If you're like, okay, this wave is 50 50, you're screwed.

And so one of the hardest things about surfing, I mean the, you know, anyone who surfs will tell you it's physically incredibly demanding. But it was also the mindset of saying, first of all, like, okay, screw it. I'm just going and I'm not gonna think too much about it. Or even saying, I know I'm gonna make this wave.

And then you miss it. And then the next wave, you still have to be like, I know I'm gonna make this wave. And as somebody who now sadly identifies as a Disasterbater so, [00:14:00] so glad I came on this show. Uh,

Paddy: This is my gift to you, my friend.

David: Thank you. I really, I deeply appreciate it.

Paddy: you gave, you gave me this great, wonderful book and I am giving you DIsasterbating

David: well, okay. And I think that, for me. I know how, you know what my temperament is. I'm never gonna be like a, a chill guy a hundred percent of the time, but I am a slightly chill guy now. And I think that's really important. I think about it, frankly, you know, I still spend about half my time in DC where there's a lot of not so chill stuff happening, to put it mildly and thinking about how to live th live through in the world, how to make the world better, even though it's hard, right?

Like to be able to be like, okay, I'm just, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna do the work, but I'm not gonna worry as much. I'm gonna worry 10% less,

Paddy: you, do you think then in your life away from surfing in your everyday life, you started to shade more hopeful than fearful?

David: I think it's actually different than I used to think that hope and fear [00:15:00] were opposed. And now I think sometimes fear is a good thing in a way where it's not about overcoming fear or running away from fear. My second surf lesson ever, I was with my instructor Katie, and she said to me, this idea called the flower of fear.

And that means that when the wave you can feel behind you, even if you are facing the beach or looking down the line, you can feel a wave that is like looming up behind you and is about to kill you.

Right. We have evolved as humans to be like, I don't wanna feel that. That's the, if I'm feeling that I won't reproduce. so,

Paddy: Okay.

David: and that, that, that's why we're all here. And so when you feel that, or Katie was like, that's a good thing because it means you've put yourself in the right spot. And if you commit in that moment, you'll have that natural power that can send you down the line. For a very long time, I was like, okay, great. No, that's nonsense. But over time, I started to feel that flower of fear open. And these days, sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes when I [00:16:00] am frightened about something or say, is this worth the risk? Is it worth the sacrifice? Or, I know this is gonna take courage.

Feeling that sense of fear. I'm not saying, okay, I've gotta replace it with something. I'm saying, this is the flower of fear. This means it's the moment to commit.

Paddy: so then it, it, it seems like acceptance. What would you call that? Acceptance is, is your surfing superpower now?

David: I'd go further. I think it's embrace it. It's saying, I wanna put myself in that spot where I am frightened. Not all the time, right? In the, in the non surfing world, sometimes you're frightened because something genuinely bad is gonna happen. But you can tell the difference once you start to pay attention to your own fear.

And so sometimes when you feel that flower of fear opening, it's not just accepting that you feel that way, but saying, this is great. Right? Thi this is what I need in order to get where I wanna go.

Paddy: David, this is why I drew so many hearts in the margins of your book.

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You've described yourself as an outdoorsy guy what are some of the other kind of outdoor adventures or outdoor pursuits that you had previous to surfing?

David: Yeah, so I should say I'm an outdoorsy guy when [00:17:00] I am not talking to a, an outside magazine podcast host, right? Like, by, by the standards I would suspect of nearly all of your listeners. I am an indoor kid by the standards of an indoor kid. I am an outdoor, at least semi outdoor kid

Paddy: light, we'll call it outdoor light.

David: Outdoor light. I grew up in the city, but my parents and, and my mom in particular was always like, she was one of those people in the city who feels trapped by being in the city.

But that's, you know, jobs and everything kept us there. I was, did a lot of hiking as a kid. Right? Like a lot of skiing. My, my dad's side of the family basically, like the, the deal I made with my wife was that I, we would get cats because she's a cat person and she would learn to ski.

'cause that was kind of like, those were the deal breakers. Uh, yep. I started in Connecticut Mohawk Mountain, which, you know, it's a pretty small mountain, but I was pretty small, so it worked out great. Um, and then we skied a lot in Vermont and occasionally out west too. And during the summers when I was a [00:18:00] kid, I did like, you know, those, like take a bunch of teenagers hiking in the woods types programs and stuff like that. And so I've always like identified as somebody who loves the outdoors and wishes I was more outdoors.

I guess that's the easy way to say it, right? In my mind, I spent my twenties like. Bumming around and being a ski bum. And that would've been great. And instead I got a White House job, which was also great, but like not good for your skiing,

Paddy: of the two things, what am I gonna do? Go get a Goggle tan or spend most of my days in the Oval Office trying to write really, uh, thoughtful and hilarious things for Obama. Uh

David: But with no signature tan,

Paddy: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

David: there? Like no tan, just a palor, right?

Paddy: Yeah. It's either Goggle tan or like pasty mayonnaise color.

David: Yes, exactly. And so when we, we moved to the Jersey Shore during the pandemic, that was also partly for me what surfing was. Just like, it's, it was a, this is the outdoor activity that is like perfect. You know? I didn't like a lot of people, I didn't know that Jersey has great surfing, but it does.

And then I [00:19:00] discovered that the best surfing is in winter, which again, you know, my, my brother-in-law who was kind of, and still is like my sort of surf guru, he surfs in winter and I was like, okay, further proof that you're insane. But then I got into it and being out in the ocean in winter is awesome because you just, it's an experience you would never otherwise have.

And I, I really love that. There's a lot of it I don't love. Right? Like the ice cream headache when, when you fall and water gets in the wetsuit not a fan, but being out there, yeah, that's bad. Um, I, I, you know, those parts I don't love, but the part where you're, you're, you know, I've been like in the ocean when it's like snowing and it's so cool and it, it just picking up, surfing forced me into this.

I wouldn't otherwise be like, I'm gonna put on a wetsuit and just bob out in the ocean while it snows. So to have this thing going on in your life that brings you out there is sweet.

Paddy: As a city kid and a skier, right? Like you understand that there's a bit of like the gear hassle and the travel to do the thing. But during the pandemic, when you decide [00:20:00] that surfing's gonna be your thing, it's like, well, why not?

Like road running. Why not get into like marathon running or cycling? Like surfing is the outdoor version of like golf to me in that like you have to do it all the time to have any kind of chance at being slightly. Okay. Why go full on into something that, really takes that type of commitment

David: the reason I chose an activity that required an intense and full on commitment that you just described is that I did not know that at the time. That's, that's the truth. I wish I could

Paddy: You got

David: I knew that I had to commit

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah.

David: I thought, I was like, I don't know. Like I listened to the Beach Boys.

I was one of those idiots, right? Like, I, I had no idea what surfing entailed. I was like, it looks really easy when people who have spent their whole lives doing it are in an incredible shape. Do it. So how hard could it be, right? Like, I knew it was challenging, but I, I thought it was like, you know, like learning a language, right?

I thought it was something you, you do duolingo a little bit every [00:21:00] day and you kind of get a little better at, and then once you start you're like, oh, okay, this is like, this is a lifestyle. Even if you're not good, it kind of has to be. A lifestyle.

But for me that was so important too because I was always somebody whose hobby was work, right? I wasn't even embarrassed about that. I was kind of proud of it, right? Like, I don't have time for hobbies. I write and then I do other writing, and then I do some more writing, and then I do some stuff related to politics and it's all work.

And then my wife would be like, you should get a hobby. And it was like a monkey's paw wish on her part. 'cause then I was like, sure, I'll get a hobby. I'll get a hobby that is going to be all consuming

Paddy: I'm gonna talk to you about it all the time, and then I'm also sneakily gonna become best friends with your brother.

David: Yeah. Um, so I think she, in retrospect, wishes she were careful what she wished for

Paddy: Yeah. It's like I meant crocheting, David. Geez Louise. Yeah,

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One of the things that's very interesting to me is that your obsession over surfing [00:22:00] blossoms like quickly and rapidly, so much so that very early on in your learning, you decide that you need an audacious surfing goal. So naturally, you set your sights on surfing the North Shore of Oahu, which to me is like skiing a bunny slope on rental skis and then thinking like, you know what?

I should book a trip to Alaska to ski, like vertical death spines from hell. so tell me why the hell set this North Shore goal.

David: Well, I think you, you can sort of take the like, White House speech writer out of politics, but you can't take like that sort of type A stuff. Like some of this is self-acceptance, right? Like I am always, you know, I, again, we, I've pretended at times to be a chill person on this podcast or a slightly chill person, but I think some of it is saying, you know, the moment I take up a chill hobby, I'm like, how could I make this intense?

So I admit that's part of it. What's interesting about surfing there isn't really, unless you're a professional or like a, you know, like a big wave [00:23:00] surfer, there isn't a goal that says, okay, you know, there's no world record.

You know, there's, if you're a marathon runner, you're like, my goal is to run a marathon sub whatever time, right? If you're a surfer, part of what makes the sport special is that the goals are like, I wanna keep surfing. Like, they're very personal, right? And I was not totally comfortable with that because that is just not my personality type.

And so I was like, what is something that kind of fits with that? Like a lot of people who've surfed and unlike anyone who is a writer who surfs, I've read Barbarian Days, which is Bill Finnegan's Amazing, you know, surf memoir to end all surf memoirs.

And in that book, and also in Matt Warshaw, the history of surfing and in basically every. Piece of surfing lore, right? The North shore is the mecca, right? There's lots of places around the world, but the North Shore is it. And so I felt like if I wanted to become a better surfer, and I thought that would make me a better person, what does it mean to become a better surfer?

I didn't really know. I was still too new to the sport, but I did know that if I [00:24:00] could surf an overhead wave on the North Shore, I would be a different person. I couldn't quite tell you how I'd be different, but I was like, probably better. I'd definitely be a better person. And that to me was, was in a way, it was really simple. The type of me, the version of me that could surf an overhead wave on the North Shore is just very different than the version of me that couldn't.

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Paddy: I only have minimal. Experience surfing, but I have been obsessed , with the sport and the culture since I was a very small child. And one of the things that I do know is that there is this misconception about surfing for people who have yet to surf. That it is very chill, man. I mean, there's a lot of reasons behind it, but some people think it's like, it's close to like yoga, right?

And it is, surfing is not like yoga. Surfing is very, very not chill. It's super hard all the time. It is kind of this like camouflage, endurance sport. , It can be very, very, scary. And unless you're super rich and own a private island and [00:25:00] employ, , multiple, , surf, , coaches, , it's usually like very, very crowded.

I have a bunch of questions to tug on here. The first is, when was the first time that a wave. Was coming at you and it was bigger than you were prepared for. Can you give us the vivid recap of that,

David: The first time a wave came at me where I was like, this is much bigger than I was ever prepared for, was immediately so, and, and almost every time after that. The huge thing that I just didn't realize is when you are lying flat on aboard a two foot wave suddenly looks a lot bigger than it was when you were standing in the water and like jumping around.

Paddy: for sure.

David: they were all pretty scary. But for me, the, the big moment where I was like, oh, I have deeply gotten myself in over my head, was the first time I paddled out with my brother-in-law, Matt. It was during a hurricane swell. I never, never surfed a hurricane swell in Jersey before. And, you know, that's, that's when we get the really, really good waves, uh, starting in the fall with the hurricanes.

And [00:26:00] the, these waves were like, I think they were legit five, six foot waves. what I discovered very quickly is that when you get pummeled by a six foot wave, it is not like being pummeled by a person who is six feet tall. It's like being pummeled by a person whose fists are six feet tall. Like, like I just, I got clobbered.

It is impossible not to feel personally wounded. You're like, I don't know why you wanna hurt me, but you want to hurt me. And then you just get pounded. Intellectually, I was like a hold down. You know, Webster's dictionary defines a hold down is when a wave pushes you under the water and waits to release you.

This was not a moment when like knowing and understanding have anything to do with each other because I, I just, I, you know, when a wave that size, it smacks you, you end up under water, you get rag doll, and it was the feeling of, every muscle and every part of my body being pulled in a unique direction.

Right? Like, I have never experienced that. And then, and this was the big one. 'cause when I was learning to surf in smaller summer waves, you know, you kind of poke your head up and then you're, you can breathe [00:27:00] and breathing is great. And

Paddy: I do it almost every day. I like it much.

David: I love breathing. Yeah. It's one of my, my favorites. And this time I am held down by this wave and I poke my head up and I'm still in the washing machine.

And then I started really panic. And that's the kind of thing, I mean, I, you know, I've had worse, much worse hold down since then, but. That moment of you are being held under the water by this, it almost feels like a ceiling of water and you can't get up. And so it's just up to the wave when you're done right, you have no control anymore.

Right? Like if you're the kind of person who finds self-acceptance, great, but if you're the kind of person who struggles with that and also likes breathing

Paddy: yeah,

David: it, it's brutal. It is a viscerally scary experience, like all the physical stuff I was prepared for, but the level of like deep lizard brain fear that's involved, I was not prepared for.

Paddy: And that's one of the things that I, uh, love about the book, right? One of the through lines of the book is, and then I got my ass handed to me again. I got crushed again. [00:28:00] And I love that because, , it's this thing I love about a term I like to call adult beginners, trying new things as you age, especially trying new sports.

One of the things I love about it is that it's not just about the trying, right? It's having to continually try and restart and continually try hard while fighting the fear of looking stupid in public. So I wanna know, what did you harness kind of like emotionally in your adult beginnerism to return to the public ass whooping?

David: well, it's such a good question because I think that fear of looking foolish, really defined big chunks of my life in ways that I never would've known before. I was confronted with it quite regularly when I started surfing, and for me, a huge part of it was, it was that mental reorientation where I had to say, okay, I'm gonna look really stupid.

I'm just going to, right? Like, I'm gonna embrace it. I'm gonna get out there and like the fact that I look stupid, [00:29:00] no one else is gonna think good on you. But I am gonna say the fact that I look dumb is a sign that I tried. And I am going to have to become the kind of person who takes satisfaction from trying.

And again, like, you know, I was very lucky I got like a dream political job in when I was 24 years old. And so I was always the kind of person who was like, trying is nice, but also succeeding is great, right? Like, and I, and I was really fortunate in that way. And also it kind of shapes you in ways you don't fully realize.

Surfing is the opposite of that for me, where it was like, no matter how good I get, I'm never gonna be that good, right? I'm always gonna be a better writer by orders of magnitude than I am a surfer. And so I, I think for me it was like that moment of saying. I am going to just force myself to say trying was winning as opposed, you know, it doesn't mean I don't have goals, it doesn't mean I don't wanna achieve those goals, but most days I don't.

And the other thing that I really came to admire about surfing as a culture and [00:30:00] surfers is even the great ones get their asses kicked all the time. I mean, I like, I love the a hundred foot wave. You know that show on HBO right? That they are getting absolutely destroyed by giant, dangerous waves. It is terrifying.

I do not aspire to do that, which is good because I would die immediately. But I admire the fact that like they're the best in the world and part of what makes them the best in the world isn't that they don't get absolutely pummeled. It's that they get pummeled by bigger waves than anybody else, right?

They've earned the right to get blown up by huge waves where I have earned the right to get blown up by medium waves. But that's surfing, right? You're just trying to get. Absolutely destroyed by something slightly bigger.

Like, I did standup comedy when I was in high school, but I was in high school, so I didn't have my, my fear center wasn't fused.

And since then, one of the reasons I never really got into it, even after I left the White House or tried that much again, is 'cause the idea of doing something in public and being bad until [00:31:00] you're good, kind of terrified me

Paddy: yeah. For sure

David: and. One of the things I will say that I'm, I'm so happy about that I feel about myself now.

That was not true three years ago before I picked up a surfboard, is I do feel a little bit like, no man. Like if I, if you're gonna laugh at me for embarrassing myself in public, that's fine that you have that right? But on the inside I'm like that, that's just a sign that I'm improving. It's a sign that I'm trying and it's a sign that I'm doing the thing that scared me.

And so like, I don't know if it's ever gonna go great, but I, but I know that being the kind of person who's not afraid of public embarrassment a little bit, that is gonna go great. Right? That's gonna make your life much better no matter where it leads. And I think that's a really big thing that I very much wish I knew at 28, but at least I know at 38.

So that's cool.

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PADDYO VO:

More from David Litt, after the break.

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Paddy: There's a lot of things that happen out in the water in surfing that can be kind of scary or very revealing. You know, like the lineup of most surf breaks right, are [00:32:00] like kind of a microcosm of society, right?

There are the haves, the people who are super good at getting waves. There's the have nots, the people who are not good at getting waves. There're really generous and helpful people. There are agro and mean people. There's a pecking order to the lineup and also the customs of the lineup. Like those things change where you are in the world surfing, especially in the us.

How long did it take you to realize this and how well did your background in politics prepare you at all for it?

David: I think I'm still realizing it to be totally frank. Like I've, I feel like this podcast is gonna come out and then the next day I'm gonna drop in on someone by accident. They're gonna be like, on that podcast you said. I'm like, well, thank you for listening to

Paddy: Yeah, totally.

David: But I also think what's bizarre to me about surfing that I never would've anticipated is it is a society, but it's almost like somebody just kind of jumbled society, then picked up all the pieces and rearranged it. Unless you're like Mark Zuckerberg and you have, you know, a surfing concierge at [00:33:00] your private Kauai, whatever it, unless you have that level of like wealth and detachment from society, it is very much everyone is scrambled.

So you're in the lineup. You have no idea. How the person next to you voted. You don't know how much money they make. You don't know what like their sexual orientation is. Right. Literally, you know nothing about them other than who they are as a surfer. And because it's loud out there. There's not a lot of chatting going on and it also, everyone is working hard all the time and so it is this little society that builds, but it's totally different. And that's one of the things that I think is really interesting about surfing is whoever you are in the parking lot and who, whatever your relationships to other people are in the parking lot, in the water and in the lineup it's different and it, it rearranges itself you know, so, so my brother-in-law, Matt, he is a very tattooed Joe Rogan loving electrician from Brick, New Jersey, which is like the, I.

The heart of New Jersey, Trump country, pretty fair to say that outside of the water, like I am the establishment [00:34:00] compared to Matt. I don't know if I like that fact or not. I don't think he would say it proudly. I'm not sure I would say it proudly, but it's the truth in the water.

He's a really strong surfer. I am a really not strong surfer. He's the establishment, right? He, he's the elites and I am the people saying, whoa, okay. I like, I don't understand. Like I'm on the outside looking in and sometimes I'm frustrated by it. When we were at a surf pool in Waco, Texas, it was really interesting to me because it wasn't just in the water, it was also like in the hot tub or on the, on the balcony overlooking the pool, right?

It was this feeling of this is a culture and the elites in the culture look down on me and I sit outside it, that set of feelings is basically shaping our entire world, certainly our country. And it was really interesting and I, I felt pretty meaningful, especially for Matt and me to be in a place where it kind of got flipped like

Paddy: yeah. I mean, 'cause the book is not just about your, surf journey, right? The book is also about how surfing is a means to better [00:35:00] understand and connect with your brother-in-law. Now, I don't want to give away the, , meat of the book or the ending, but can you tell me to what extent, how did learning to surf help you better understand your brother-in-law?

David: yeah, so I, when I met Matt in 2012. I immediately knew, and I suspect he immediately knew that we had absolutely nothing in common. Right? Like he lifts weights and listens to death metal. And I jog slowly and listen to Steven Sondheim, right? We are just very different. A,

Paddy: yeah,

David: a, , and until the pandemic, that didn't really matter, right?

We were always like, we weren't friends, but we chatted. We got along, then the pandemic hit and it really felt like we were drafted into opposite sides of the culture war and then vaccination came up, right? I mean, that was a big flashpoint for, for us. Like it was, I think for millions and millions of people.

Yeah.\ You know, I never would've imagined that we would do anything together, let alone spend hundreds of hours together. And we did. And I think that [00:36:00] one of the things that really surprised me, Is that I had this sense of like, okay, if we are spending time together, we will either decide that's a mistake and we don't like each other, or we will realize that we actually have all this common ground and we agree on way more than we thought.

We're not that different, and it turns out we're super different. Right? If anything, I know more about how different we are after spending time together, but what I learned from surfing with, with Matt and from what, from just like, you know, not just the surfing, right, but like going to the rental car place on a surf trip.

All of the little things is that our differences are real, but they're not as meaningful as I thought. They don't, they don't have to mean everything, and that shouldn't be a profound thing to say or like a, like a realization that has one has to come to. I think that in America right now, it is increasingly something that we're losing sight of and I certainly had lost sight of it and so.

You know, to me this is not, it's not at all a political book, but I do think that there's a lot of people who say, there's someone in, in my life, a family member, a friend, where it's like, we just can't talk [00:37:00] anymore because of politics or because of everything that feels like politics. And I think, and I hope that a lot of people will take away, okay, if, if David and Matt could do it, then maybe there's hope for the rest of us.

And I think that's really important to me. Right. In addition to all the surfing stuff, I think that unlikely friendship matters right now.

Paddy: Do you think that the sport, the act of surfing and just also the time spent together in the water, going to the surf spot, traveling to surf, do you think that made you maybe not co-sign his point of view, but at least open to his point of view, his ideas, the values that are in, in his life and also him to yours?

David: A hundred percent. I, I don't wanna pretend that we agree about, you know, big quote unquote political things. 'cause I think on a lot of stuff we don't, right? Like, you know, I'm not getting a tattoo. I don't think he's gonna get the COVID vaccine. It's just that those things are not gonna happen. But

we spent all this time on neutral ground and that meant that by [00:38:00] now or by the end of the book, we were comfortable talking about controversial topics, where before we would've just ignored them or ignored each other. And I learned a lot, right? Not 'cause I agree with it again, but because I learned stuff.

So here's just one example, it's not even in the book, but we were in Spain for a surf trip in bass country and we just, you know, had a long drive. We started talking about unions. 'cause Matt is an electrician, he's non-union, and I am a member of the Writer's Guild. So I, I, I am a union member. And also just, you know, politically I think unions are really important and Matt was talking about how he feels that, like the union, electricians don't always get to be creative as the non-union ones, right.

There's a lot of, you do the same job over and over again. And sometimes frankly, he was like, feels like the pressure to join a union feels like localism and surfing. It feels almost like bullying. Um, like we're the incumbents. We're here. And you know, if you're not one of us, you don't count. And I don't agree with him about that with unions, but I certainly know what he's talking about.

'cause I felt it surfing. Right. I felt that [00:39:00] sense of like, listen, I'm respectful. Why you act like I, I don't belong here. Right? This belongs to everybody. And it didn't change my opinion about whether unions are good for the economy or, or good for workers are important. But it definitely changed my opinion about why some people might disagree with me.

And that's really important because if you are hoping to persuade people that you have a point, or just like not demonize people and say, okay, you're not a bad person, you just, you see it differently. That stuff's really, really been interesting to me. And you know, it's not like why we hang out. Right?

That's, I think, the other important part. We hang out 'cause it's fun, but I've learned a lot in the, uh, in the process.

Paddy: Now I am not naive, nor are you. There are a ton of scary things happening right now in our country, putting huge swaths of the population, arguably all of us, at varying levels, a deep existential risk. How do you see this story of learning to surf and the pursuit of common ground fitting into the current state of the U.S.?

David: Well, I think there's two ways that this book, [00:40:00] which I do wanna make clear, is fun, right? Like

Paddy: is a super fun book. It is a super fun book. I would not be drawing smiley faces and hearts in something that is about doom and gloom

David: yeah. But I, and, but I will say the stuff I love to read. Is not homework, it's entertaining. But then, you know, a week later you're like, huh, I think a little differently because of that. And so there's two ways that I hope that people who read it's only drowning will, will think a little bit differently about what's going on in the world.

Which, you know, I think we, we share the view is pretty outrageously frightening and, and also pretty sad in a lot of cases. Many, many cases. so the first is I think there is a lot of social pressure to cut off contact with people who don't see the world the way that you see the world. And it's not a matter of opinion.

These are often matters of right and wrong, but I think that part of living in a democracy in a society is how do you treat people who you are very confident are wrong? And I think, you know, the, the [00:41:00] I, there's every relationship between two people is different. I'm not saying these people need to be in your life, these people don't.

But I do think. That maintaining contact, that spending time with people in this neutral ground that is not political is actually really important. Because what a lot like what the worst people in the world want is for us, no matter what quote unquote side we're on to decide, we don't even want to talk to those people.

That's what they all want. That's how they benefit, right? It's how they get votes and attention and money. And it takes a lot of discipline to say, I am going to continue to spend time with people, even if they have opinions that I don't just think are wrong, but I think they're dangerous or terrible. Um, and I'm not saying that all ca right?

Like if Steven Miller is like, Hey, wanna go surfing, I'd be like, that's okay dude. Like we're good. But

Paddy: that dude definitely does not surf.

David: he's not a surfer. But I also think like most people are not Steven Miller.

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I think I was one of those.

Sort of like small L liberals or [00:42:00] small D Democrats felt really guilty about having fun at a time when the world is on fire. And I have really changed my view on that. I think we do have a responsibility to make the world better, right? It doesn't have to be through politics.

There's a million different ways you can leave the, the planet and then humanity better than you found it.

We talked about worrying or you, you called it Disasterating, right? Like that feeling of fe, of feeling guilty to have fun when the world is on fire, that's not constructive, it's actually destructive. I think that one of the things that I learned. From surfing, especially in these times where like we're all being called on.

I genuinely think to step up, whatever that means to you, right, is even in that kind of a moment, having fun, being happy at times, appreciating the world around you, it doesn't make you complicit. It makes you complete.

Paddy: That is a great way to put it because I think that anger, while it can motivate you to start down the path of social justice or political change, however you see that like anger is depleting, right? Shame is a [00:43:00] terrible motivator. , But joy is revolutionary. Laughter charges you up.

what better way to combat the terrible, terrible things that are happening in the world is to stand there and say, I will fight against you and I still will be joyful. that. To me, that is some badass stuff right there.

David: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I think that in a democracy, which we still have for the time being, right, and like, and I care a lot about preserving, and I, I would think and hope like no matter you know, who you vote for, right? You should care about preserving. I think that part of it is also if you are joyful, it sends an example of like, don't you like come join us, right?

People want to be part of the, the group that is able to have fun.

But it's a real moment for Happy Warriors because we are surrounded by examples of the most wealthy and powerful and influential people in the world. And they seem miserable all the time.

Paddy: So not fun.

David: It's such a weird like hippieish thing to say, but it's like stop hating [00:44:00] and like go have a good time. and maybe that would make all of our lives better. 'cause you would stop trying to like, bully us.

in the book's examination of how you both have been cast in the national culture war play and how you stick to those assigned roles. I'm wondering though, since you and Matt weren't the author of those roles, what, if anything, did surfing do to free you of the culture war?

I think a huge thing that I learned from surfing with Matt, and again, it shouldn't be that revelatory, but it was for me and I bet it will be for a lot of people who are, who are listening this or who end up living it, is that we are so much more than our demographic characteristics and so much of kind of top down pressure from politicians, sometimes from media figures is about sorting us based on our characteristics.

Like what do you, what do you like, what kind of music do you like? What kind of car do you drive? Who do you vote for? These are, these are who you are. And we're more complex. We're more interesting and we don't have to just be [00:45:00] that. I think that was a big thing for me to learn about.

Matt and I suspect, although I've never asked him, 'cause we're guys and we don't talk about this stuff. right. But like, I suspect that he, probably feels that way about me as well, right? That like, we have a more complete picture of each other than we did three years ago. And once you have a complete picture of most people, not everybody, right?

We have tons of examples in the news of people who are like, I think a complete picture of you would be quite off-putting, but most people right? Most of your neighbors, most of the people you see on the street, the better you get to know them, the more positive you feel about them. And we were, we were just talking about fun.

And one of the things that I think is really important here is that. Again, the sort of elites that are, you know, I I would say doing a lot to divide us right now, they don't seem super capable of having fun, but when it comes to the rest of us, what I think of as like voters or just regular Americans, or whatever you wanna call it, we still have that in common, right?

This is, we, we like having a good time. We don't want to be miserable. This stuff isn't complicated, but it can, we don't have role models from the top. And so I think a lot of the book, [00:46:00] in a weird way is about, okay, we no longer have the role models in these positions of power that we might want. at least for me, that's putting it mildly.

So how do we become our own role models, right? What can we do to give examples to ourselves and to people around us of the kind of behavior that we wish there was more of in the world? And one of the reasons we wish there was more of it in the world is this isn't just altruistic. It's so much more fun and it's so much more interesting and you can make friends you wouldn't otherwise make.

Like this is a win, win, win, win, win.

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Paddy: A through line in the story is how surfers need full commitment without full knowledge, which I love. Just as a concept as you and Matt are spending more time together, you created this real deep friendship and respect you. Also, while this is happening, we're constantly frustrated with him and dumbfounded by him.

The book doesn't preach Kumbaya, bs, but maybe suggests civility or at least tolerance long enough to try to understand someone's values and how those [00:47:00] values direct a life. Is that a fair assessment?

David: It's a very nice assessment, so I'm gonna say it's totally fair. Yeah, absolutely. No, I think it's, I think it's exactly right and I think you, you hit at something that I is very important, which is respect, and I don't respect all of Matt's opinions and he does not respect all of mine. I can more or less guarantee that, but we respect each other.

And I think one of the tricks that like the bad guys, you know, the big bad guys in the world are trying to pull is to say, if you don't respect my opinion, that's personal. And if you don't spend time with someone outside of their opinions, then it does feel personal. But I think it's okay to be able to say, no, that's ridiculous.

I think that's nuts. But we have a foundation of respect where you can say that to me that's important. And also where that's not, it's not personal to you, right? You're not defined by your opinions in my mind. And I think that's really important and it's something that you don't get unless you just spend time with people.

In surf culture, there's a real obligation, or at least a, a allowance that says if [00:48:00] you are a hardcore surfer and you're really good, you don't need to give someone like me the time of day. Right? Certainly not when I was starting, and even if we're being honest, most of the time these days, like I, I'm all right, but I'm not one of the cool kids, and I know that, and, and like shunning the not cool kids is entirely accepted in surf culture.

And Matt, to his credit, never did that to me, never even came close. And it was the fact that he was so generous without even making a big deal out of it. Right. I feel like I wrote a book about the fact that I'm like, we're friends. And he was just like, no, this is just how I am. Right? Like, that's a, that's a better example, frankly.

And it really made me rethink. My own behavior, not just to him personally, but in general. Right. And, and again, it's not Kumbaya stuff, but it's about saying, Hey, how we should be able to respect everyone, even if they believe some things that we just deeply think are wrong. And sometimes the, you know, it's like, and we think the evidence suggests is wrong.

It's not, not just opinions.

Paddy: Well, the idea of full commitment without full knowledge for me echoed a Norman Maclean [00:49:00] quote that I've been obsessed with since I was a kid from a river. Runs through it, Maclean writes, and so it is those we live with and should know who elude us, but we can still love them. We can love completely without complete understanding.

David: Hmm.

Paddy: I love that quote so much.

David: Yeah.

Paddy: Does this fit into your friendship with Matt?

David: First of all, I love a river runs through it. that's a book I read every year. And it's fantastic. Right. And, and I sometimes have pitched this book as like a river runs through it, but it's surfing and no one dies.

I love that book and I think it, I mean this question of how can you know someone even if you don't understand them, I mean, that's absolutely at the heart of that book. To me, I think it's only drowning is a slightly different question for a slightly different moment, which is how can you.

Relate to someone and enjoy spending time with someone even when you don't agree with them. And I think the bafflement or, or even when you feel fundamentally different from them. And I think that sense of [00:50:00] bafflement is real, but I also think it does come back to that idea of, and this is a similarity, you have to accept and even embrace that lack of knowledge.

And I think about that idea of full commitment without full knowledge a lot these days. Because if you agree, which we seem to, that the world is in a pretty dire place and you agree as we seem to, that all of us should try to make it better. We don't know how it's gonna turn out, right.

We don't know if the good guys are going to win. And despite that, you have to show up every day doing everything you can and acting as though. You know, this is gonna, this is gonna bear fruit that the work is gonna pay off. Even though if we're being honest, we kind of don't. Right. We don't know what's gonna happen.

And that's so hard. And it is one of the things that surfing has taught me, right, is to be able to say, I'm gonna be all in on this, not because I know it's gonna work out. Be because I know if I'm not all in on it, it definitely will not work out, right? Like if I, if I say, maybe I'll catch the wave, I, there's a 0% chance I [00:51:00] will get it.

If I say there's a hundred percent chance I'm gonna make this wave, I've got a shot.

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Paddy: My final question, I think is a hard one in regards to this experience. You're learning to surf your time spent with Matt.

Do you have a message for America?

David: Yeah, actually,

Paddy: Hmm

David: uh, I would say my message to America is finding common ground is much harder than we would like because we are, the differences we have are real and that's okay. Find neutral ground instead. Right. Don't worry so much about agreeing on all these big things. Find places where we can still spend time together.

That are not coded as political, liberal, conservative, maga, anti maga, rediscover those shared spaces in neutral ground and be really curious to each other and be open to unlikely friendships and it's gonna make your life better. And even if you don't know how yet, it's gonna make the [00:52:00] country better too.

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Paddy: It's time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without.

David: This is the one thing I know that most surfers do not know is a dog poop bag. And I'm going to explain why. 'cause getting into a wet wetsuit is really difficult, right? You've gotta get your, your legs in, um, and your, like your feet. But in particular, it like gets all like sticky almost.

They sell products that do this. And I bought one and then I lost it because that's what I do with things I buy. And then we have a dog and I was like, you know what is a pretty solid bag? People say grocery bags. Uhuh dog poop bag. If you take a dog poop bag, it more or less replicates that experience. It is extremely cheap.

And you can get right into a wet wetsuit. And

Paddy: it on your feet and whoop.

David: yeah, just put it on your feet. Then you take it off, put it on your hands, slide their hands through. Yeah. Uh, you know, and, and no [00:53:00] one else will do it because they don't want to be seen with dog poop

Paddy: best outdoor snack.

David: Gushers a hundred percent. Couple of things about gushers that are great. Number one, it's two snacks in one snack.

Paddy: Right.

David: That's amazing.

Paddy: A solid and a liquid.

David: Yeah, that's right. You hydrate and you eat.

Paddy: Yeah. That's right.

David: The other thing I love about gushers is they're surprising and delightful. And I understand that. Like you may be the kind of person who is like, okay, I know what's gonna happen and technically, intellectually I know that the gushers is going to gush, but each time you're drinking juice in the middle of eating a gummy bear, I'm like, this is amazing.

And it's, I was

Paddy: it did it again. I had no idea.

David: Yeah. I didn't think this one was gonna do it. If you are outdoors and doing something difficult and strenuous, like your snacks should surprise and delight you. So gushers

Paddy: be the gusher.

David: be the gusher, both parts. Don't just be the gummy bear, don't just be the liquid center. You gotta be the whole gusher.

Paddy: Love this. What is [00:54:00] your hottest outdoor hot take?

David: If I'm doing something outdoors, I am already virtuous. And so I want to eat junk food.

Paddy: yes.

David: I am the kind of person who absolutely is sometimes like I want bread made from grains that we're like sung to and you know, are good for the planet and believe in that stuff.

But only when I'm inside like a goblin at my computer, feeling bad about it when I'm outdoors, like then I just want junk. And there is a, the seven 11 at the base of Cottonwood Canyon right at the intersection of little Cottonwood Canyon and, Cottonwood Canyon in Utah. And the taquitos from that seven 11 were coming down from Snowbird or Alta.

Yeah. All a solitude or Brighton, right? Like those taquitos are the best meal in the world. And I highly recommend them.

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PADDYO VO:

David LItt is a former senior speechwriter for President Obama and a New York Times best selling author. His brand new book, "It's Only Drowning: A true [00:55:00] story of learning to surf and the pursuit of common ground" is available now. 6 outta 5 stars, I loved it so much I wish I could erase it from my meomory so I could read it for the first time again. You should buy it. In fact, you should buy two so you can give a copy to someone you love. Find more of David's wonderful and award winning work on his website David Litt Books dot com and follow his surfing misadventures on Instagram at David Litt.

 Also, remember lovely listeners, we want to hear from you. Soooo send us your guest nominations, show reactions, and any and all pod thoughts via an electronic letter known as an email to �����ԹϺ��� Podcast At �����ԹϺ��� Inc Dot Com. We are, afterall, making this show for you and the curiosity tubes on the side of your noggin...those are your ears.

[00:56:00] The �����ԹϺ��� Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "ya know, I think Emperor Palpatine had some good points" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

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