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Paddy: we have to acknowledge the fact that during this trip you took to calling yourself Swamp thing, would you please explain the moniker?

Dan: I think there's a little bit of swamp thing in each of us. Right. We're, we're not that far evolved from crawling out of the primorial E

Paddy: Mutant who lives in the Swamp.

Dan: Yeah. So Swamp Thing emerged for the first time, I would say I was in a, a little town in the area called Fultonville as I write in the book, it's not really watercraft friendly anymore.

and I'm paddling into town. I'm hot, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty. . And I can see over the, trees on the periphery, one of those tall kind of highway like signs.

McDonald's, it was, I think, so like, I'm, I'm gonna get some cold drinks and a bunch of food. I'm sick of energy bars and peanut butter tortillas.

So I, I leased my sup to a, a tree on the riverside and I kind of jumped off into the mud and then I crawled up this steep overgrown embankment and burst out through the, the tall grasses at the top. And I almost got hit by a car at the back of a Dunking Donuts drive through. Right. went in, got a whole bunch of food, took it down back to my paddle [00:01:00] board to eat and drink.

That's where Swamp thing emerged. 'cause I, I don't know what they thought

seeing this guy with, with stuff in his hair and dirty, smelly clothes, crawling outta the back of the restaurant looking for food. To refer to myself as Swamp Thing in an almost affectionate way it just felt like a way to be one with the natural world, right?

There's a lot of goose poop and the water's kind of dirty and they're kind of slimy. . And I felt like swamp thing in there. 'cause I didn't care how dirty the environment was.

That was my biome by this point. I was at one with the environment.

Paddy: MUSIC

PADDYO VO:

I’m a bit of a talker. You’re probably thinking, “No duh PaddyO—you host a podcast,” but I come by this honestly. As a Chicago Irishman, jawing and spinning a yarn is my birthright. Honestly, I don’t think my body knows how to breathe without exhaling words, and it has nothing to do with whether or not a microphone is present. On most days, talking to folks is the best part of my day.

Whether [00:02:00] it’s learning a stranger’s backstory, diving into the well with an old friend, a goofy exchange with the barista—even an out of breath “howdy” on the trail—I love it all. I’m constantly curious, and chitchatting gets me out of my own head, which I believe makes our big ol’ world seem less lonely and less doomy and gloomy (seriously, have you been on the internet lately?). Even having said all that, I have never set out on an adventure for the sole purpose of talking, but I know one dude who has...Dan Rubinstein.

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Dan is a stand-up paddle boarder and writer. Ten years ago, he wrote his first book, which was about walking all over his native Canada, the U.S., and the U.K. and talking to folks about their lives along the way. The book was precipitated by a professional identity crisis in his own life, but it [00:03:00] was the connections he forged with strangers over the benefits of walking that inspired him.

This time around, when Dan was once again confronted by a crisis—this one more of a personal, existential crisis driven by age, climate change, politics, and will they/won’t they World War 3-type stress—Dan knew just what to do: replace all that walking with a paddleboard and float from his home in Ottawa to New York City and back. You know, just a casual 11-week, 1,200 mile paddle to get his head on right.

Dan’s fascinated by a relatively recent concept known as “blue space”, which is the aquatic equivalent to green space. There’s a growing body of research that indicates time spent in and on the water has all kinds of positive impacts on mental and physical health that are similar to, but distinct from, the positive impacts of other kinds of time spent outdoors. [00:04:00] And he wanted to know how the people and communities he encountered along his journey were influenced and affected by their proximity to blue space.

Yes, this journey turned into Dan's Latest book, Water Borne: A 1,200-Mile Paddleboarding Pilgrimage, but it was not the kind of standup paddle adventure you see in your Instagram feed—Dan spent lots of time in pristine wilderness, sure, but he also spent days paddling through struggling towns where the waterways are the equivalent of a spent mine or deserted factory. No one’s going to be booking tours on this route.

Dan encountered every form of gear mishap, foul weather and “What the hell are you doing out here?!” reaction you can imagine, but it was ultimately the conversations—impromptu and with complete strangers—that led Dan to feel like this giant blue ball we’re all floating on isn’t so big and scary after all. By that measure, [00:05:00] you could say the most impressive part of the journey wasn’t what Dan did with his paddle; it’s what he did with his mouth. That sounded a lot weirder than I meant it to …

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first things first. Burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment? �����ԹϺ���.

Dan: I went, uh, sups surfing in Portugal a few months ago and, you know, I'm kind of a beginner, intermediate sups surfer. Surfed in, in the west coast and east coast of North America a few times.

Know my way around the paddle board and I got my ass handed to me immediately and repeatedly over the course of a week, uh, in era Sierra, uh, washing machine badly on my first wave.

Bounced off rocks, like cock my, cock myself on the head with my paddle and gave myself a big goose egg.

Uh, and, learned how much I have to learn. Uh, it was awesome, but it was a very humbling experience.

Paddy: big of waves are we talking?

Dan: They felt like 10, 12 feet to me, which is probably double anything I'd ever experienced.

Paddy: Were you just like, ah, screw [00:06:00] it, I'm doing this. Or were, did you go in pretty freaked out,

Dan: Uh, I wasn't initially freaked out, but after that first wave I was like, holy crap, what have I signed up for and why did I fly here and, uh, am I gonna survive this week? the coach was great. The instructors were great. the boards were great and it just, it's me. That wasn't great.

Paddy: But you're a sup guy. Like, sup is your thing. So did you feel like, oh, I'm gonna, be like a savant at this and just like get after it Right. When I like hit the waves,

Dan: I mean, there's pros and cons to sup surfing compared to, to conventional surfing. So you are already standing so there's no popup. You've got the paddle for propulsion, not just your arms. So much more maneuverability and power. The downside is you can duck dive with the surfboard. You can't duck dive, but the sup just too too big.

Paddy: Absolutely. Worked on

the paddle out?

Dan: Yeah. So you, you go under the wave and then the wave grabs your board and yanks you back, right? Once you actually catch a wave and make the turn, you've got this massive roaring wall of water right beside you.

And you're gonna, you're gonna wipe out eventually, and then you're gonna take another two or three waves on the head and then have to battle out and do it again. So I, I, I, I love it. But my, [00:07:00] my, my fear has expanded too.

Paddy: the obvious next question is, are you gonna do it again?

Dan: I would love to, yeah. Maybe I have to pick a different spot next time. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm all in for next time.

Paddy: I like your style, man. All right, let's get into it.

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In the summer of 2023, you set out on an 11 week. 1200 mile standup paddleboard journey from your home in Ottawa to Montreal, New York City, Buffalo, Toronto, and back to Ottawa. Now using memories from this trip, can you paint me a picture of the most idyllic moment Supping?

Dan: I had a day on Lake Champlain, uh, which is in northern New York State, uh, above the Hudson River. Fairly early in the trip. most days on this journey, I had significant mileage to make. So I was setting a pretty brisk pace and, and going hard for 8, 10, 12, 14 hours This day was short and, uh, I had nothing to do, uh, when I got to my destination that night.

So it was kind of a chill day.

It was sunny, it was warm, it was, uh, late June. So the water temperature was nice and, you know, I had a leisurely morning paddle. [00:08:00] I stopped for lunch at a state park. usually my lunch consisted of shoving whatever food I had into my mouth, energy bars and peanut butter tortillas.

Paddy: Sure, sure.

Dan: On this day, I actually pulled out the Camp Stove Rehydrated a meal.

Ate leisurely went for a swim, uh, naked swim. I love taking off my clothes and jumping in the water when there's nobody around was just l laying down on

Paddy: our R rated lunch. All right.

Dan: Was, uh, there's a lot of nudity in the

Paddy: Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, that's right.

Dan: yeah.

And then was laying down on the warm rocks to, to warm up and dry off afterwards. And it, it just felt like I had always been doing that. Like I was meant to do that, you know, to travel by water on a paddleboard to stop where I wanted to stop, to just kind of be one with nature in the world. Everything felt right that particular afternoon.

Paddy: now conversely, paint a picture of the worst moment when you're thinking, dear, sweet God, this is awful. Why the hell am I out here? I'm such an idiot. Ugh. I just wanna be home.

Dan: Opposite end of the trip, Western tip of Lake Ontario. lake Ontario is a long [00:09:00] way, a long lake. It's about 200 miles. And I had a 40 50 kilometer day, so like a 25, 30 mile day to get to the town, uh, where a friend of mine was gonna put me up for the night,

right at the very tip of Lake Ontario.

And there was in the forecast a fairly gentle wind from the east, which in theory would give me a push where I was going. In reality, the wa uh, the wind kind of built beyond the forecast. And by kind of mid-morning waves were four or five feet all coming in my right side. So I'm padding on my left side for eight hours.

Um, normally I can stop and eat and drink on my board. And this particular day, the, the waves are just too big. The wind was too strong and I started to fall in and I hadn't fallen in to that point. And this is like nine weeks, eight or nine weeks into the trip. I hadn't fallen in, started to fall in, even when I was kneeling, uh, the, the waves would pitch me off the board and at one point the board flipped over and I hadn't considered that that was possible.

'cause there was three dry bags, about 60 pounds of camping gear on top of the board. I thought the weight would keep it upright. So I'm,

Paddy: [00:10:00] 14 foot board. it's a supstantial. Board.

Dan: It's an ocean going vessel. Yeah, it's, it's a 14 footer. It's 30 inches wide. Crazy volume. Uh, very, very stable. And I'm used to surfing and, and whitewater and river surfing. So I'm used to dynamic conditions, but started to fall in board, flips over, I'm leashed to the board. I'm wearing my PFD. And it's an onshore wind, so I'm not worried about blowing out to the middle of the lake, but I wondered, can I right the board and get back on it and what's gonna happen if I can't?

Fortunately I was able to right the board, shove the dry bags back under the bungees and, and, and keep going. But that was kind of frightening 'cause I hadn't considered that possibility. And when you're in the water beside all your stuff and you have a destination in mind, it's a little frightening

Paddy: how many. Times did you come up with a, like, more lyrical version of the F word during an experience like that? Or just the trip in general when there's moments where you're just like, I'm getting kind of rocked and I've put myself in this position and I gotta get to, you know, my next location.

'cause I'm either doing an interview or, you know, nighttime is coming and [00:11:00] I need to, get my, tent up

Dan: daily, you know, times a day. You know, I've been saying that like an entire universe unfolded every day. it was a high highs and the low lows every day. And, and the lows could have been because of the heat of humidity, because of the distance, because of conditions, because of the fact that one day I backtracked the wrong direction to try to catch a train so I could do some downwind and busted my ass to get to the train station, had my board wrapped up and, and ran into the train station only to learn that the train had been canceled.

And suddenly I was really screwed and further from my destination. But I, you know, I don't know if my, my use of the f-bomb got more lyrical, but I, I talked out loud to myself a lot. I talked to all the animals I saw and I talked to the conditions. So I'd, I'd be swearing at the wind, I'd be swearing at the waves I'd, I'd, I'd be, yeah.

Uh, to myself.

Oh Yeah.

All the time.

Paddy: Now, when you're swearing at yourself, do you say I or do you say you

usually I go you, I'm like, it's somebody else. You know, like I'm the smart one, the dumb one who I can yell at is this [00:12:00] like version of myself outside of myself.

Dan: why the hell did you decide to do this? What made you think this was a good idea? Who do you think you are?

Paddy: Look what you've done to me. You stupid, you.

Dan: Yeah. You gotta find somebody to talk

Paddy: yeah, exactly right? Yeah. Yeah.

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In my experience, big adventures, you know, pursuits that we need to train for tinker, with logistics, ones that will take a significant amount of effort and time. They all have a big why. What was yours?

Dan: I was at a bit of a low ebb in my life, so I was, not quite 50. and. Dealing with a lot of the kind of middle aged midlife ennui that arises in our urban western world, where, you know, my identity is, changing. As my kids get older and leave the house, uh, I'm worried about climate change. I doom Scroll I'm worried about the state of the world and, and the fact that we can't seem to talk to one another as human beings anymore.

So all this is swirling around in my head and I've been paddle boarding for about 10 years and love everything about it in all conditions and environments. Swearing at myself, not withstanding. [00:13:00] And as a journalist and, uh, as a journalist who was increasingly focused on, on sup, and, and Water, I started to explore the idea of Blue Space and what happens when we spend time in.

On and around water and why it feels so good and is so good for us. And all of that kind of coalesced into this journey where why not kind of be the research subject and see what happens when I dive into aquatic environments for a few months and along the way talk to people whose lives or work revolve around, uh, health and social justice and sustainability related to, to water and blue space.

So it all kind of coalesced into what I thought would be a neat and tidy package ended up, you know, there were a few tangents, uh, at various points, but, um, it seems like a good idea at the time.

Paddy: This idea of blue space is very intriguing to me and it's a term I think that not a lot of people really know or understand. So Can you define Blue Space

Dan: yeah, I mean, essentially it, it, it means, uh, being in an aquatic environment and that that could be anything from a vast ocean or [00:14:00] a path along a river or even a fountain in a, in a city square, in, in, in a big urban area. So just being around water and a lot of, the impact of blue space on us is psychological.

it's an elemental part of who we are. You know, it's a majority of our bodies. It's a majority of our planet. it's the reason why our communities are where they are. it's everything. When I breathe out, you know, there's water in, my, uh, exhale. When you breathe in, you're taking in my water, right?

It literally kind of gross, but it literally, yeah, maybe not virtually here, but it literally connects us, right? Water seems to kind of uncork this multiplier effect. It slows us down.

Some boats go quickly, some paddlers go, go quickly. But by and large, when we're in blue space, our pace is moderated. You know, whether we're just hanging out at the seashore, picnicking walking, or even paddling, you know, you're, you're moving at three, four. However many miles an hour, you're not going particularly quickly.

So it's, it slows down our cadence. there's also an element of danger in blue space because, you know, drowning is one of the leading causes of unintentional injury. Death, flooding, uh, [00:15:00] storms, waterborne diseases, water is dangerous. And I think we tend to look out for one another, even for strangers around water, more so than we do in other environments.

Um, so because it slows us down, because it's dangerous, it leads to this potential for interaction and for human connection between people that that's different than in, than in the forest. I mean, you're out for a hike and you see somebody going the other way in the trail. You might nod, you might say hello, but you could just pass by with barely kind of a glimmer of interaction.

Whereas in an aquatic environment, you say hi, and you talk to pretty much everybody, the boater wave, right? Like, even though I'm a weird guy on a weird vessel with all this crap, and I look, I look strange and I smell people in fancy boats stopped and wanted to talk to me, right? Um, so water just kind of facilitates this type of interaction.

One of the, the coolest things about water comes from a woman, uh, Jenny Rowe at the University of Virginia who talked about the way being around water encourages kind of a sense of, boundless possibility

of [00:16:00] ex extent of anything can happen.

But at the same time, it's comfort and belonging, it feels like home. So we get this really kind of grounded feeling, but also the, the possibility of change. And that duality, I think is something that, that's really interesting to the way your thoughts work.

Paddy: Okay, so take me through some of the science here

Dan: . So on one hand you get that duality again, of, comfort and belonging, but also infinite possibility. So you feel good, but you feel things can change, and that's a really powerful kind of state for the mind to be in.

Um, there's also this notion of soft fascination. So that's when you're, kind of paying effortless attention to something in an almost supconscious way.

Which frees the mind to focus on other things. And that can happen anywhere, and especially in any kind of natural environment. But when you're around water, whether it's the way the light is playing with the waves or the sound of moving water, that lends itself to soft fascination, and that can be an incredibly restorative state to be in.

We feel this innate connection to water. And because of that, we just, we, we, we feel good when we're around it. We're drawn to it.

There are a lot of [00:17:00] caveats associated with blue space. Not all blue spaces are the same, and access to blue space and these sorts of environments is certainly not equitable. But by and large, when we're in this type, these types of environments, it's good for us and it can have a profound impact on our own kind of individual and community, physical and mental health as well as the way we relate to one another.

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Paddy: You kind of seem to me like you're describing like getting into the zone. and I think most times with outdoor athletes, when we think of getting into the zone where you're fully connected physically in this unconscious competence, but then, , mentally you are just like fully in the ethereal plane. I think we think of more action when we think of that, not standup paddleboarding on a lake, which seems like pristine and meditative, but not so much like getting into the zone. Are you saying that. On this trip, you felt, were you feeling that on a daily basis of, of this heightened zone type experience?

Dan: Yeah. So, uh, sometimes, you know, I, I, I'd kind of divide a day in chunks and, you know, I'd have a couple [00:18:00] hours to get to our particular landmark or, or, or, or a place where I wanted to stop. And I, I would start off, sometimes counting paddle strokes, you know, and up getting up into the hundreds, into the couple thousand.

Uh, sometimes I would think about the segments of each stroke, you know, the reach, the planting of the blade, the pu pulling yourself past the board, feathering the paddle back. And I would kind of think in this mantra like way, and then I would realize that an hour would've passed and I would've stopped thinking about anything.

And I would've been in this metronomic meditative state when I was almost floating above the board. I would've made three or four miles without. Thinking about anything at all. So it's, it's different than that, the feeling of presence you get while, while surfing and when you're totally locked in and it's much more adrenaline, obviously.

But I, I felt that daily on this trip where I was, almost floating above the water.

Paddy: Was it immediate when we set off or did it take a couple days for you to stop thinking about the emails and the, oh, like I'm, you know, leaving my wife behind for 11 weeks with the kids and it's summer, and I got these things I'm supposed to [00:19:00] be, rem mulching, the, you know, flower beds out.

How long did it take for those things that drift away and for you to get into this like, meditative zone type of, paddle experience?

Dan: it took a few days. It took a few days for the, stress intention of, of getting the logistics organized or sorted to the point where I was ready to go for all that stuff to fade. Um, but the phones in the dry bag, right? It's, it's, it's not handy. So, you know, unless you stop and pull it out, you're, you're not plugged into the rest of the world.

And then when you do stop, you know, you're, you're eating, you're drinking, you're sitting with your feet in the water, you're looking at the birds and, and whatever animals are in the water and on shore, you're present pretty quickly.

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Paddy: This is your second book, waterborne, and your first book, born to Walk, was inspired by a dream job that turned into a nightmare. Can you elaborate on what that nightmare was and how the time you spent walking helped to recover from it?

Dan: so I was an editor at a national magazine here in Canada, and, uh, the magazine was going through a difficult [00:20:00] period. Finances were tough and although we were an independent, publication, whose parent was a nonprofit, we were taking money from corporate associations and government agencies to produce content.

And I wasn't comfortable with the ethics of, pretending that things were, objective When I knew how this, I was making the sausage, I didn't just know how it was made. And so I was thinking about an exit strategy and I always loved walking. I loved hiking. Uh, and I just, I began to, to read more and come across more examples of people who were exploring the curative properties of walking, all over the world.

and I thought, how, how poetic would it be to. Walk away from this job and make walking my job for a while.

So I traveled around, uh, the US, Canada, and the UK to spend time with people, whose lives at work looked at different kind of, um, benefits associated with walking, physical health, mental health, social, spiritual, economic, family bonds,

and, uh, it was an incredible, it wasn't one continuous trip, but a series of smaller trips in, in, in different locations, [00:21:00] which kind of pieced together into, into a book.

Paddy: Is there similarities that, Born to walk inspired for waterborne? Like what in your life did this paddling trip help trip help you address or recover from?

Dan: I think there's similarities between the activities. I like to describe paddle boarding as kind of like walking on water. It may look challenging, but the balance isn't actually that hard. and once you kind of figure it out, and if you have decent gear and you've put in a few miles, it's really, it's a slow but sustainable way to travel.

I think my, my anxieties and worries were, were just, were 10 years later on, right when I, when I embarked on this trip. So I, I had dealt with, my ethical quandaries as a journalist through the walking book and, and, and saw walking as a way to help kind of, uh, address some of the harms in the world.

But the world is even more messed up now than it was 10 years ago. And, I've realized that for us to, as society, to even begin addressing global warming, we need to. Remember how to talk to one another first, right? So the problems are that much worse.

And you know, I don't think, I don't think walking or paddle boarding is gonna save the world, but I think [00:22:00] beginning or, or, or reestablishing the capacity to have conversations with strangers and with strangers who we disagree with is the only hope we have. And I, I began to see on the paddling trip, blue space and water, not so much as, as a path to health, whether it's human health or ecological health, but as a conduit to connection between people.

And that's the only thing, you know, I think that really is gonna matter in the end is do we see one another as allies on this big blue ball,

or are we fighting each other for every last shard of survival?

Paddy: Well, Dan, I have to, think that 10 years from now when you turn 60 and you are again kind of revisiting some sort of existential threat that you will take now since you have walked and you have been on water, you will take to flight and write. Airborne. So what do you think is going to happen in 10 years to make you build a glider in your backyard and, and take off from the Canadian Rockies?

Dan: I, I'm really glad you picked up on the trilogy in, in, in Progress here, and [00:23:00] Air Airborne is the leading addend for, for, for book number three in, in 10 years.

Paddy: Oh, I feel, I

Dan: on it

Paddy: I feel like I've read your mind and your diary all at the same time.

Dan.

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one of the things that I loved about the book is just how many conversations that you had, not just the planned ones.

I mean, those of course, were great for some historical or scientific, background, but just like bumping into strangers. And so how many conversations did you have with complete strangers on this trip?

Dan: Dozens and dozens and dozens, uh, EE every day, whether it was a short exchange or, you know, sitting down and talking to somebody for three, four hours. that was the heart of it all. Stupid me. I didn't realize that, uh, you know, although many people have talked to, talked about, it's the people you meet on a trip that make it,

It started to, to become apparent on my first leg from Ottawa to Montreal, and then was reinforced, uh, you know, every day on the trip where I would just have these incredible, uh, inspiring serendipitous encounters with strangers.

And, uh, I learned from them. [00:24:00] They were generous and kind and supportive, and they gave me hope. And they, boyed me onward. , in simple and also profound ways. Do you have

Paddy: Do you have a. Favorite?

Dan: Uh, I dunno if I could pick a favorite, but early on, uh, when I was still in Canada, I was camping in Quebec at a provincial park and it was a miserable, rainy buggy night and, set up my tent and just grabbed some food and there was an indoor space. So I, I went there to get away from the bugs and outta the rain.

And it was a guy, one other guy sitting there, big room and he kind of looked up and nodded me and, and we didn't talk for about an hour or two, and then he, he kind of looked up and I was just sitting there with my book and my notepad and my food. And he made some casual comment about the internet not working well, the wifi not working well.

And you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a journalist. My job is to talk to people. I'm curious as well. So I took that as an in to go and, and start chatting with them. And he, his name is Chris Obon. Uh, he's in the book and he had just the most inspiring story in the world. Chris had had a very difficult, childhood and life.

Um, suffered terrible [00:25:00] abuse, , had been in incarcerated, had dealt with all sorts of addictions and mental health issues. You know, he was an enforcer for a biker gang as a teenager. He is a six five tattooed guy. He recently had learned that, , the government in British Columbia on the west coast of Canada had, recently decided to make, post-secondary education free for anybody who had been a ward of the state, anybody who'd been, uh, raised in an orphanage.

Chris decided living in Moncton, new Brunswick and the east coast of Canada that he was gonna get on a mountain bike. Biked five, 6,000 kilometers to bc. Uh, had never done any biking. , He describes his side himself as the fattest guy to ever bike across Canada.

Paddy: 'cause he is, he was what, like 300 plus pounds or

Dan: Yeah, 6 5 3, 3 20 I think he said.

And I've interviewed a lot of people who've been dealt raw hands in life, and I've heard a lot of inspiring turnaround stories from people in my work as a journalist over 30 years. I've never heard anybody express themselves so honestly and articulately and powerfully about the transformation that they were undertaking.[00:26:00]

And it was a really emotional, raw, open conversation. And Chris told me that he, uh, was not really comfortable sharing his story with strangers, I guess,

Paddy: know. And it completely opens up to you. This is also my favorite conversation that you have in the book too.

Dan: Okay, cool. Yeah. And just something about that environment that night. I, you know, he, I wish he was paddling, not biking, but beggars can't be choosers. Uh, something about that night in the rain, just, we, we, we clicked and I said, you've got a powerful story, man. You, you need to, you need to start sharing it.

And he said his sister had been saying the same thing. Uh, he decided to start doing more social media with his sister's help, and he developed this incredibly. Beautiful online following to the extent that when his bike and all of his gear were stolen, couple weeks later, the community rallied and, and kitted him out again.

And he kept going. And he just had this incredible support from private citizens, from outfitters. Um, he had been afraid of talking to strangers. 'cause

as a six five tattooed dude, you don't wanna scare people. And he, he started talking to people and just like my [00:27:00] experience, they fed him. They put him up, they took care of him.

Right. And, you know, I, I, I don't know how much good my book will have done in the world, but if, if my interaction with Chris help him get to where he needs to be and help him, and he wants to be a social worker, that's why he wants to go back to school, right? So if that, if that butterfly effect interaction does a little bit of good, then you know, I was meant to be in that place talking to that guy that particular night.

Paddy: There's a couple reasons why that is my favorite conversation that you have in the book, and one of them is because it's so early on in your trip that I feel like it had to have kind of lit this emotional. Fire within you about like, oh my God, you know, I'm going to discover incredible people trying to do incredible things, The second reason is that especially in a time in the world when it seems like cruelty is a commodity, here is a guy who has tried that in his life and is now in this incredible physical pursuit of getting to the [00:28:00] opposite side of Canada, is trying to switch the deal on that, take his pain and use that. As a basis to connect with people and try to help people. That's the thing he keeps saying in this conversation is, I want to try to. Help folks. And so, given these two things in this conversation, how early it was, how Chris seems to be taking his pain and transforming it into, an opportunity to connect with people rather than use that as kind of a battering ram to go through life.

What kind of wind did that put into your proverbial sail or into your proverbial paddle, I mean, did it light you up, man?

Dan: Yeah, it set the tone in, in, in many, many ways. Um, Chris happens to be indigenous, and indigenous peoples in, in the US and Canada have suffered horrible abuse at the hands of, of the colonizing states. the part of Quebec that I was heading into, there was a, a a, a standoff between, uh, Mohawk Nation and soldiers, uh, 20 year, 20 years prior.

Um, the Oka crisis, which, you know, [00:29:00] the, the town wanted to expand the golf course on Sacred Land and it led to an armed conflict and a soldier was killed, and the wounds from that are still very raw. So I was thinking about Chris, I was thinking about Oka, and then I pulled into another Mohawk community uae, which is on the south side of the St.

Lawrence, across from Montreal. And it all kind of coalesced there. And this was the end of my first leg. gonaa means by the rapids. You know, the Mohawks there had been on the St. Lawrence since time immemorial. In the 1950s, the St. Lawrence Seaway was built and it was basically. Bulldozed through their front yard and this great river that they have been connected to for so long.

Suddenly there was a, a highway for tankers running through their front yard. Despite that, the community is doing amazing things to reconnect to the water. so I spent some time with folks at a local paddling club, and there's some great paddlers in that community. There's an Olympic gold medalist who's come from there.

kids who are members of this paddling club learn all sorts of incredibly good values. Um, not just about, you know, physical health and, and, and, and, and teamwork, but about being good community members and good citizens. [00:30:00] Um, and then the other kind of the environmental kind of win there is that, um, when the seaway was built, whole bunch of rocks and rubble from the digging were.

Piled onto this archipelago and this big arid island was created. and the community's just putting the finishing touches on a project to renaturalize that island and to plant,, habitat for native fauna and local plants and places for people to hang out.

So I see Chris's transformation and his kind of rebirth, and the rebirth in Gowa as kind of parallel to one another. And despite all of the harms, despite all of the shit that these people or places have dealt with, they're not giving up. They're finding power and community. And in the case of this case, this town gone wildly.

It, it's, it's through the river. It's through this, this, you know, central part of who they are, right? So it just kind of, the timing was great and, uh, this was, you know, after just one week of paddling, I was really excited about getting back in the water and, and heading down to New York and, and seeing what else that would happen along, along the way.

MUSIC FOR A BEAT

PADDYO VO:

More from  writer and super SUP-er Dan [00:31:00] Rubinstein after the break.

MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL

Paddy: As you're traveling along, as you're paddling along, how did the communities and the people change along the route? Like, were there places where people were friendlier or, or quirkier or more or less interested in, in what you, you were doing? Or did you continue to have kind of just like this emotional tone, like set early on and, and rise and rise.

And rise and rise?

Dan: I would say it kept rising and rising. I mean, heading down the Hudson to New York City, you know, communities change as you get into, into lower Manhattan, it's, it's, it's way bigger and, and crazier than anywhere else on the trip. Um, so think things were, and the Hudson, there's an amazing story of renewal and rebirth on the Lower Hudson.

I mean, it was dead and it was the birth of the North American environmental movement in the 60s

sixties and Hudson River Keeper and Pete Seger. It just amazing, you know, people realize

Paddy: it was deemed like a dead river because it was so polluted, right?

Dan: Yeah. I mean, they say you could tell what color the cars were being painted in the auto factories by looking at the water. Right. Uh, and you [00:32:00] couldn't eat any of the fish. There was PCBs, dumped into the river, toxic pollution, but now it's a clean, healthy estuary, and the communities have rallied. So I, I was like, I was peaking going down to Hudson.

This is amazing. And then I hit the Erie Canal. And Erie Canal might have been my favorite part of the whole trip. Um, yeah. Which, uh, I didn't know much about the Erie, uh, before beginning this process. And, uh, it's 2025. It's celebrating it's 200th anniversary this year. So it's an old waterway.

It was built for commerce.

It's not really used much for trade anymore, you know, uh, trains came in and then highways and barges aren't the most efficient way to move most things. But you have this blue ribbon connecting all these rust belt communities in upstate New York, and there's water in the heart of a lot of these towns, and it's still kind of a central thing in the imagination of all these places.

people were probably a little, uh, less affluent along the Erie than other places I went, and they probably skew right politically as well. But they were amongst the most kind and generous and friendly people I've met anywhere in the world. [00:33:00] Uh, and, and despite the fact that they were either richer than me or poorer than me, or different skin color than me, uh, or traveling in different modes on the water, they were just open and friendly and, and wanted to talk.

The big shift happened, uh, somewhat ironically, when I got into Canada, back into Canada. Uh, we like to pride ourselves in Canada, uh, as being polite

Paddy: The nicest people in

Dan: Exactly. Well, I'll, I'll apologize for, for, for, for you stepping on my

Paddy: Apologize for apologizing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Dan: yeah. I'm sorry. Sorry for interrupting you there.

Uh, uh, and it was a, a friend of mine who was kind of reading early drafts, uh, an editor friend of mine, Rick Chek, who has lived in the States for, for long periods of time down in Colorado, and he pointed out that the Americans were just so in your face. Engaged. And, you know, I meet somebody and within 30 seconds they demand to know my life story.

And then a minute later they're telling me their life story.

I get back into Canada and, you know, suddenly my, fellow polite Canadians are just not that interested in who I am or what I'm doing, not compared to the Americans. And I appreciate that, candor and [00:34:00] that directness, you know, we might look down on, uh, on our southern friends and neighbors and, and, and think you guys are too loud and, and, and too brash.

But I I I love that. I

Paddy: Affability set on 11.

Dan: Yeah, but you're out there, right? It was one of,

one of my favorite days was paddling on the Erie Canal. Uh, end of a long hot day. And I'm, I'm heading to a campground and I just wanna get there and I'm paddling hard. Head down. I got a half a mile to go and I hear somebody yell, take a break, have a beer.

I, I look over my shoulder and there's a marina on the right. And there's some folks in the back of the boat and for half a second I think I, I just wanna give him a wave and keep going, but figure why not? You know, I like beer, it's hot, they're offering,

and I, I pulled over and, uh, a guy was named Matt Donahue.

He was there with his wife and son and some friends who were visiting from the UK in weed sport, New York. And he helped me climb up on the boat and we sat and talked for an hour and they asked a million questions and they were just so. Joyful about the fact that I was doing this weird trip and so supportive.

And then they told me everything about their [00:35:00] town and its history and their stories. Uh, it was just this wonderful moment of connection. And the two things that really stand out from that, encounter, Matt told me at one point that I was about halfway down the Erie, uh, and Erie's like 350 miles. So that meant I had another 180 miles to go, which is a long distance.

And I'm going into the wind, into the current, and it's, late July and it's crazy hot. And I think he kind of sensed my weariness and he told me that he used to be a member of the US Navy CBs, which is this, uh, elite construction battalion that jumps in and builds bridges or buildings and they get shit done when they have to.

And he told me their motto was, um, the difficult takes time, the impossible a little longer. And I, I just found that so inspiring that, you know, if you put in the time, you put in the effort, you'll get there. And then when I left, uh, Matt and I hugged and it wasn't, you know, kind of awkward, one arm back padding.

It was two middle-aged men who just met and talked for an hour giving this real

Paddy: Heart to heart. Navel to navel.

Dan: Yeah. And, well, I was kind of, he's a fair bit taller than me, so it was more kinda head to [00:36:00] shoulder blade or whatever.

Paddy: Did you rest your weary head on his shoulder?

Dan: I, I, I think I might have, I might have shed a bit of tear into his, his t-shirt, but, uh, but I, I thought to myself, you know, and maybe this is me extrapolating and romanticizing blue space, where else the two middle-aged men who've just met

hug like that, you know, it's gotta be around the water somewhere,

Paddy: Yeah. Well it, it's stories like that that make so much of your trip sound so idyllic, right? The most idyllic journey, right. Moving at a paddle pace. You're human and water powered. You're gliding along and having meals and bevies with friendly strangers. But we can't paint a completely rosy picture here.

we have to acknowledge the fact that during this trip you took to calling yourself Swamp thing, would you please explain the moniker?

Dan: I think there's a little bit of swamp thing in each of us. Right. You know, we we're, we're, we're not that far evolved from crawling out of the primorial E

Paddy: Mutant who lives in the Swamp.

Dan: Yeah. So Swamp Thing emerged [00:37:00] for the first time, I would say I was in a, a little town in the area called Fultonville it was the, where the steamboat was invented or where the inventor of the steamboat comes from.

But as I write in the book, it's not really watercraft friendly anymore.

Uh, and I'm paddling into town. And, uh, as always, I'm, I'm hot, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty. And I can see the, the Erie Canal, uh, is, is largely river, uh, with some engineer section, so it's kind of like a river riverine type section. And I can see over the, trees on the periphery, one of those tall kind of highway like signs.

Uh, McDonald's, it was, I think, and I, I get my phone out and I look on the map and I see there's a bunch of fast food, you know, not far from the river. So like, I'm, I'm gonna get some cold drinks and a bunch of food. I'm sick of energy bars and peanut butter tortillas. Uh, there was nowhere really to stop or I hadn't really seen anywhere to stop.

So I, I leased my sup to a, a tree on the riverside and I kind of jumped off into the mud and then I crawled up this steep overgrown embankment and burst out through the, the tall grasses at the top. And I almost got hit by a car at the back of a Dunking [00:38:00] Donuts drive through. Right. Um, went in, got a whole bunch of food, took it down back to my paddle board to eat and drink.

And that's, that's, that's where, right. That, that's where Swamp thing emerged. 'cause I, I don't know what they thought

seeing this guy with, with stuff in his hair and dirty, smelly clothes, crawling outta the back of the restaurant looking for food. To refer to myself as Swamp Thing in an almost affectionate way where, you know, sure, you might be a, a, a step or two out of sync with the rest of the environment because these are, these are cities, these are towns.

They have roads and cars and buildings and business districts. but it just felt like a way to be one with the natural world, right? Like, you know, and I, I think about the, for example, the, the locks that I would go through on the airy canal lock stations aren't the kind of cleanest places.

There's a lot of goose poop and the water's kind of dirty and they're kind of slimy. But when you're, when you're going through on a SUP, uh, you have to pretend you're a kayak basically. So I'm kneeling on my board. There's a long rope down the slimy wall, and I got my arm hooked around the rope.

And, you know, initially I was [00:39:00] just kind of, all right, this is kind of cool, but I went through dozens of locks and that's, that's 15, 20 minutes where you're not paddling. So that was time to eat. Drink, take notes, make calls, look at maps, et cetera. And I felt like swamp thing in there. 'cause I didn't care how dirty the environment was.

That was my bi, that was my biome by this point. I was at one with the environment.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: laughter and poking fun at yourself is a great way to relieve tension in general, and I think especially on outdoor adventures. But were you ever super uncomfortable? Were you ever

scared?

Dan: So I, I camped, uh, the majority of time and, uh, and a lot of these waterways you can camp at lock stations or, uh, towns in the Erie Canal have these river landings where boaters can tie up and paddles can camp. You can't just drive up and camp, but if you're paddling or cycling through, you're, you're allowed to camp.

And there was one town, Albany New York where it's kind of a rougher town, and you actually have, you have to get the key to the bathroom from the police station. Uh, and the officer was behind bulletproof glass and [00:40:00] there was a swat vehicle parked out front. So a little, a little unnerving. Uh, I saw a drug deal on the edge of the park when I pulled in.

Uh, considering that cannabis was legal, probably wasn't cannabis. Uh, and it's a couple rougher looking people hanging around and, you know, I'm everywhere I went, I, I left my gear

in a pile, fed up my tent, would go to find a supermarket or restaurant. Didn't think twice, and nothing ever happened. But in this place, I, I was worried about it and I just kind of sat there with my stuff.

just happened to be the day that a couple hours earlier I had met a couple on the water and was chatting with them, and they told me they lived in that town and they suggested, Hey, why don't we come meet you when you get there? We'll bring some food and we'll hang out and, and talk. And I was like, yeah, sure.

I was looking forward to kind of a, a quiet early night. 'cause I had a big day ahead of myself, but I was like, yeah, sure, come on down. Yeah, I'd, I'd love to see you again. And they showed up with like homemade cookies and nuts and fruit and a six pack. And we're sitting talking, the sun is setting and my gears just piled up there.

And I asked, if it's safe to camp [00:41:00] here. And sue, uh, the woman said, do you feel safe? And I said, I'm not sure. And she said, we're not sure either. And I realized. They weren't just friendly, generous strangers. I think they came to check up on me and, and to look out for me. Uh, I think they knew that the, you know, the downtown park in this town, was a little rough around the edges.

And, um, Sue got on the phone. She called her brother, who was a retired tugboat captain of course, who lived right across the water. And he said, yeah, dude can camp in my backyard for the night. So I put my stuff on my board, paddled the cross, and set up a tent in this guy's backyard. He was in bed already.

I'd never met him. but yeah, and that was like literally the one time where I thought is this, is this safe? Um, everywhere, like I, I did a, a bunch of gorilla camping and I, I

camp and at boat launches and places with no camping signs. But there was invariably somebody there, uh, fishing or walking a dog, and I always gave him a smile.

Said hi and asked, do you think it's cool to camp here? And usually they said, yeah, you should have no problem. Everything's fine here. at one point, [00:42:00] again, in the Erie Canal, uh, I asked the guy, he was out fishing if it was cool to camp there, and he said, yeah, you'll be fine. And then he said, my buddy in the last town told me you were coming and, uh, you're the guy from Canada.

I was going to Buffalo. Right. So not only did a local say, yeah, you're you're good. But, um, he's, he, he kind of was expecting me and that felt really reassuring that strangers kind of had my back and they're, they're passing, they're passing it down to the next person along the line.

PUASE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Did it feel like the blue space Gods were smiling upon you? Did you

feel like? This is it? I could only ever experience something like this.

The emotionality around all of this in and around water, like the water has delivered me.

Dan: Yeah. And that, and that's e every day, you know, again, every day low lows and high highs. And, Every day there was a moment of just this transcendent, suplime beauty and, and, and joy where everything was aligned and everything was meant to be. I think about, uh, the longest day of my trip was July four, uh, on the Hudson.

I paddled, uh, from Troy to Catskill like 41 miles, I was on the water for like 16 [00:43:00] hours. I was. Exhausted by the end of the day. It was, you know, there's fireworks 'cause it's, it's, it's Independence Day. And then I realized that some of the fireworks weren't fireworks. There was lightning coming in hard from behind me, and no storms in the forecast.

But this lightning is bearing down on me, so I have to bust my ass to get to the marina. And the wind is swirling. And I'm like, why? Like, I could have stopped an hour ago or two hours ago. Why did I want to push through? I get to this marina, you know, lightning is like a hundred yards, 200 yards away.

Leave the gear on the board, tie it up, and just run into the first building. And of course it's the bar and there's those people there and you know, the bartender's wiping, wiping down the surface and saying, we're closed. But I, I see the guys with their half-finished drinks and she says, yeah, you can have a beer.

And then it's just instant camaraderie with these strangers

Paddy: it's like even your bad days, your bad moments like turn into these like wonderful, heartwarming experiences, in the book, a lot of these things,

happen in and around big cities. And

I grew up in the shadow

of Chicago.

I [00:44:00] love big cities, they're great. But one of the things that I love about the outdoors, specifically, what I love about river trips or water adventures, is when you pass over that invisible line, separating you from the wild and modernity, you know, when you really get out there into the wilderness and into the backcountry, and you become one with the water and one with the nature and the terrain and how you're moving through it. And you had a lot of that while also paddling in like shipping canals and locks and industrial parks. Was that an odd feeling? Did it feel like a push and pull of opposites to be in such pristine blue space, but also be paddling through, paved over paradise?

Dan: Yeah, you're a bit like a yo-yo, right? It's, it's, it's very incongruous to, to be, to be in, in some places, you know, not seeing anybody for hours, not seeing any signs of, of civilization for hours. And then to, to be in, in a dirty, urban environment where you see crap pouring into the water and, and tons of garbage floating in it.

And so you see [00:45:00] that, you see the beauty and you, and you see the degradation. But ri rivers, rivers connect people and connect communities, right? Rivers were our highways. And you know, you, you, you go for a hike in the wilderness, you could. Keep going away and away and away from people and, and, and, and be lost and gone forever.

You travel along a river, you're gonna bump into somebody sooner or later for the most

Paddy: That's a good point. That's a

Dan: So rivers do connect us. And, uh, I, I, I mean, I, I love wilderness trips. I've done been lucky to do some paddling in the great bare rainforest and British Columbia and just being hours and hours away, you know, float plane drop offs and hours and hours away from anybody and anything.

And that's, you know, that's profoundly beautiful. But I, I, I love the incongruity and, and and, and the contrast between us and nature. And most of us live in cities, we have to live in communities. We need one another. And I think, you know, a lot of the places along this trip showed me how. Not only are they cleaning up their waterfronts, but they're facilitating access to these waterfronts so everybody who lives there can, can enjoy and take advantage and derive the benefits from it.

I certainly did, and I felt that [00:46:00] everywhere.

Paddy: the book does a fabulous job of giving historical context of your route, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly in the communities that you visited. You also masterfully show that oftentimes when we are on the water, many of the social and political crises du jour that seem to be emergencies on land and seem to be dividing us. Land, take a back seat. What did your time paddling teach you about humanity and teach you about our culture?

Dan: Yeah, I mean, I, talked to people whose political beliefs are vastly different than mine, on this trip. But we didn't talk politics. You know, we, we talked about the weather, we talked about the communities where they are. We talked about their lives. They asked about my life, right?

so we talked about immediate visceral human things, not about these boxes that we put ourselves in or these labels that we affixed to ourselves and to others. So there's that kind of common ground and connection. And I, I think about, uh, you know, another guest you had on this show, David Lit

Paddy: I was just gonna say, David Litt talks about, not seeking [00:47:00] common ground, but neutral ground.

Dan: Yeah. I, I loved, I loved his book, and I, I love that idea that, you know, it, it's, it's the beginning of something, right? He found it through surfing. I found it through, paddle boarding. Uh, you can find it through, through walking or volunteering or whatever, is your jam, right?

It's just escaping these, these constructs. We, put ourselves in, you know, this conversation is fine, but when so many of our interactions are mediated by technology. Or mediated by cars. You know, when we're swearing at the asshole who cut us off in traffic,

you're inside a 4,000 pound box, right?

But when you're two human beings looking at each other

out there, IRL, , you see each other as humans. Uh, and this is something I, I took from my walking, uh, writing and research, it's the, the speed at which we engaged with and discovered one another. So if, if you zip past somebody in a car, your brain doesn't have time to process what's going on, let alone recognize that's another human being.

And we have a lot in common, and we can prob you're gone, right? But when you approach somebody at a walking pace or at a paddling pace, you're kind of taking in all the stimuli, and by the time [00:48:00] you're face to face. You're, you're ready to, to say hello and smile and have this conversation and Yeah.

And I know I'm idealizing some of this stuff and, uh, again, you know, blue Space isn't gonna solve all the world's problems with the snap of a finger, but it, it creates that, uh, that atmosphere and that environment where that possibility is there. And that's a starting point I think.

Paddy: Do you believe though that blue space can be this connective cure to the social and political catastrophes that seem dead set? On dividing us, and if so, how? So? I feel like so much of us right now are just like, I just want the magic bullet, and maybe blue space isn't the magic bullet, but it can help.

Dan: Yeah. I mean, evolutionarily we're programmed to go for instant gratification and seek the path of less resistance, right? That helps us save calories. That helped our ancestors survive in the Savannah.

It's doing us a disservice now. Right? The quick fix it's not sustainable, it's not gonna work.

Hard work and a long-term transition, pushing the pendulum [00:49:00] back slowly and together is the, is the only possibility. And although I am an optimist, I think things are gonna get worse before they get better. As climate change continues, as things continue to break down, uh, environmentally. And socially, you know, and we realize that running to bunkers might save us and our family for a little bit, but it's not gonna save us for long and certainly not gonna save a lot of people.

Then what type of shift, you know, will, uh, engender these bigger, more profound changes?

Paddy: Do you think that. 11 weeks, 1200 miles paddling, that much time in blue space provided you with hope or a better, less doom filled glimpse into the future? And if so. What's that look like?

Dan: it did. Yeah. And it did. And, and, and the kind of, the reality check for me is, you know, when, when I'm down and I, I still get down like everybody else, and I think, what, you know, what do I know? I'm just a privileged white male guy who likes paddling and I'm a writer. So I like to seek kind [00:50:00] of metaphor in, in, in the things that I experienced.

What do I know? But then I think about the people I met on this trip, and whether they're people like Chris Obon who's transformed his life, or people like Kate Morse in Skyler Ville, New York, who's, who's built a park Hudson Crossing Park out of a polluted island and created this amazing community gathering space that's helped revitalize a town that was really struggling just a couple decades ago.

Uh, and as Kate told me, I can't solve all the problems in the world. But I can solve some of the problems in my small part of it. And I met lots of people who have the same, uh, attitude where, you know, I can focus on my community and I can focus on one particular issue or challenge in my community, and I can do what I can to make things a little bit better.

And if, you know, it's a cliche, but if more of us start to do stuff like that, then that's, that's the pendulum being, nudged in the other direction.

Paddy: MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

It is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without.

Dan: I was gonna say a paper map. 'cause I'm anti-technology and I love to have that, but I'm gonna say long [00:51:00] Johns, uh, long underwear,

Paddy: Shocked. You wouldn't say SUP, but also shocked. You said paper map and long johns.

Dan: yeah. long Johns are lounge wear. Throw a pair of shorts over top and they're outerwear. You know, they're, they're a towel. They're a potholder, they're a hat. Uh, they're indispensable so long, no matter the season pair of long Johns.

Paddy: the clothing version of the Multitool

Dan: There you go.

Paddy: best outdoor snack.

Dan: I have this, I think it's Nature Valley or Harvest Valley, this brand of granola bars that there's always a couple in my backpack or in my dry bags, crunchy peanut butter. They get crushed, like they get beat up

Paddy: Oh, absolutely.

Dan: I'm pouring granola on down my shirt and on my face. But I just, I love the taste and the flavor and I, I, I could switch to something more effective and more nutrients and calories, but it's, it's shovel pouring in

Paddy: Just a classic Nature Valley bar. Nice. Tried and true. The og. I like your style. What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Dan: guys who go out for recreational bike rides, like they're dressed for the Tour de France.

Paddy: the spandex clad. LYCRA clad [00:52:00] crew.

Dan: My brother called him mammals, middle-aged men and Lycra and, uh, like, get, get, get the, get the

Paddy: is The best.

Dan: are comfortable. You need the cushioning, but, you know, and if you're doing a race or whatever, sure.

Get, but you don't need to be in a team jersey to, to hit, hit the multi-use path for a ride around the city.

Paddy: Oh that is So, yeah, to the next coffee shop

where you get the like 12,000 calorie Frappuccino. 'cause you

bike there. Listen, you tell your brother, I'm gonna footnote him, but I'm gonna dip my fingers in his Kool-Aid and I am using mammal.

Dan: Middle aged men and Lycra,

Paddy: Oh,

that's so good. mammals. Dan and I are coming after you. Do you hear me? This is your warning.

Oh.

Dan: after us. Watch out.

Paddy: Yeah, that's right. The Peloton. No,

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Dan Rubinstein is an Ottawa-based writer, editor, and stand-up paddleboarder (not necessarily in that order). Water Borne: A 1,200-Mile Paddleboarding Pilgrimage, was published in June 2025 and is [00:53:00] helping introduce the concept of "blue space" to people around the world. Dan's first book, Born to Walk: The Transformative Power of a Pedestrian Act, was a finalist at the Ottawa Book Awards and Kobo Emerging Writer Prize. Dan is also a National Magazine Award–winning journalist who contributes to publications such as �����ԹϺ���, The Globe and Mail, and The Walrus. He’s a former editor at Canadian Geographic magazine. And at this moment, he's likley on a river after a long day at the laptop.

To find bookstores in the U.S. and Canada who have WaterBorne on their shelves, check out ECW Press Dot Com Slash products Slash Water Dash Borne.

And remember, we want to hear from ya, you lovely listener you. Email your pod reactions, guest nominations, an outdoorsy haiku, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to �����ԹϺ��� Podcast At �����ԹϺ��� Inc Dot Com.

The [00:54:00] �����ԹϺ��� Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "Talking to you is a part of my day, but not necessarily the best part" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

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