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Paddy: we can capture the Grand Canyon and the Colorado River just by sitting still sometimes.

Cindell: And my favorite piece of water is when we float down river on a quiet moment, and you hear this little trickle of water hitting a rock and it's really loud, even though it's really little because we're paying attention.

I always ponder its quietness, like, gosh, it does exist with or without us. The birds do the bird thing. The fish do the fish thing. The wildness is just doing its thing down there and we are just passing through

Paddy: there's something very sacred and soulfully special to me that something like that, a scene like that, a quiet like that exists before I show up to it and far after I leave it,

Cindell: if you don't go down into the bottom of the Grand Canyon on a river trip, you don't even get the opportunity to experience that moment you could be up on the rim and get your 15 minute photo [00:01:00] out there, but you don't really know the depth of her soul until you enter into what we call the rabbit hole.

You know, going down into Allison Wonderland and going down into the rabbit hole and having those once in a lifetime experiences down, it changes your life. Changed my life.

Paddy: PADDYO VO:

When I ski bummed in Colorado in my twenties, I spent my summers running rivers. In my mind, sunbattered raft guides sat next to goggle-tanned ski bums on the pedastal of coolest outdoor archetypes. It wasn't just their ability to read water and guide a raft through frothing standing waves, but their buddha-like connection to the river. They were tuned in to the water, to all of nature, on some deep, spritual level, while paddling through it. And I desperately wanted to feel that.

Huge portions of my summer months were spent living out of a dry bag, and  as [00:02:00] I fell in love with the river rat lifestyle and proved my prowess with a paddle and oars on rivers in Colorado and Utah, I felt more deeply connected to the Southwestern landscape. But every single one one of my whitewater mentors talked about one adventure that was less a river trip and more a religious experience. Becasue it wasn't A river trip, but THE river trip: floating the Colorado through the Grand Canyon. And if you were lucky enough, you'd pilot a dory, a wooden boat known for it's high-sides, sharp V-shape, balletic movement, and apparent abilty to tap into the spiritual energy of the water. I know, it sounds all woo woo but when you've felt even the slightest bit like you were moving with the natural world rather than in conflict with it, well, wouldn't you want to use any tool possible to turn the volume up [00:03:00] on that? I sure as hell did and still do. Floating a dory through the Grand Canyon was my ultimate goal.

Maybe it was affabilty, maybe skill, maybe it was me always taking on groover duty, setting up and breaking down the backcountry toilet, but offers came to row baggage boats for commercially guided trips. I could start there, work my way up to a dory after a few trips, I figured. But...I whiffed. Lack of funds, poor timing, the stupidity of my 20s, it just never happened for me. And when I traded my PFD for trail runners and a mountain bike, the offers dried up. I have yet to check the box of this bucket list trip. But I am still enthralled by the Grand Canyon and those who've managed to carve out a career running its rapids. Folks like professional Grand Canyon river guide, Cindell Dale.

PAUSE

[00:04:00] Cindell has been intimately connected to the Grand Canyon and its folk heroes since the early 80s. She's married to Roger Dale, a river legend himself and brother to Regan Dale, former captain guide for OARS, one of the oldest river trip guiding companies in the United States. Cindell first floated the Colorado in 1983, the historically high-water season in the Grand when the Glen Canyon dam was filled to near-bursting, which spawned a bonkers river season no one has seen since. That first trip hooked her so Cindell joined the team at Grand Canyon Dories, the famed wooden boat commercial guiding service -- one of the first in the Grand Canyon-- helmed by the legendary early environmenatlist and Grand Canyon superhero, Martin Litton. Cindell learned water reading skills from famed guides like Kenton Grua, George Wendt, and the women who broke the river guiding glass ceiling like Georgie Clark, Jan [00:05:00] Kempster, and Ellen Tibbets. This legacy, which Cindell and her peers continue every summer on the Colorado, is the focus of a new documentary called "About Damn Time," which chronicles the challenges and the victories of all these women as they took on the male-dominated world of river running.

Cindell has become a legend herself after spending decades rowing her dory, the Ticaboo, on hundreds of trips through the heart of the Grand Canyon, guiding thousands of paying guests into a beauty so unique and rare it can change your life. And for those of us who still dream the Grand Canyon dream, well, we're lucky enough to be able to sit back and listen in wonder to the stories of those who have passed through the magical splendor and touched something other worldy.

MUSIC

First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment? �����ԹϺ���.

Cindell: well the [00:06:00] most recent one was when we had boat stopping wind at right above Hance, rapid. And we went up there and scouted Hance and I knew that if we went down there, we were just gonna blow the boats up. Little beautiful little wooden boats. And I told the crew, I said, well, we can go attempt that, or we could just go camp right over there at the head of Hance.

And they finally made the call and just went camping instead. And

And morning it was better.

Paddy: To me, that doesn't seem too humbling or hilarious. It sounds like you made a great call and everybody leaned on your, uh, expertise here.

Cindell: well, you could see the look in their eyes like wet cats. One of 'em really wanted to go do it and the other one was so very thankful, to make that decision. And it was an easy decision. 'cause I've been in that position before. , But it is very humbling to know that the weather does control your destiny down there sometimes.

And it's hilarious when you look at all those faces and they're like, is she gonna make us do this?

Paddy: please don't tell us. We have to go forward. , Mama Nature is in charge.

Cindell: [00:07:00] Yes.

Paddy: So. Have you ever had a moment where you're like, Ugh, I should really listen to what Mama Natch is telling me right now, but I'm not gonna, Or have you always listened to that voice?

Cindell: There, you know, is that, uh, pit of despair that like is way down deep in your soul. And with all of those experience that you have throughout all of those moments, you have to listen. And when you have 30 mile an hour winds coming upstream at you. It's gonna really slow you down if you move forward. You know, move slow in order to go fast. And that's what we

Paddy: Oh, that's my favorite. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Perfect.

Cindell: Here we are.

Paddy: alright, let's get into it.

MUSIC

Okay. So I wanna start things off with some funny rapid fire river trip questions. Whatever comes, just let it fly, let it loose.

Cindell: Copy. got it.

Paddy: Okay. What's What's worse? Kitchen detail or groover detail?

Cindell: It depends on the [00:08:00] dietary needs of the people. 'cause you can have a vegan, you can have a dairy, you can have a gluten,

Paddy: Oh, I thought you were talking about Groover,

Cindell: no, no. Sometimes it takes you three hours to make a pasta meal. So I'd much rather take down the Groover than sometimes cook.

Paddy: Uh, same. What's harder? The logistics of planning a multi-day river trip or takeout day of a multi-day river trip.

Cindell: At the takeout you're just exhausted. And if you're taken out down there at Pierce Ferry on Lake Mead, when it's 115 degrees outside, that's where you can hit the wall.

Paddy: I also think emotionally takeout day on a river trip, when you realize that you're going back into the real world, it's like there's a blanket of sadness that gets draped on everybody.

Cindell: We call it reentry.

Paddy: Would you rather run the meat or skirt the gnar?

Cindell: Depends on the rapid.

Paddy: Bocce or horseshoes.

Cindell: Both.

Paddy: I like your style.

Cindell: I like winning.

Paddy: [00:09:00] Yeah. Do you sleep on your boat or do you set up a tent and sleep on a Paco pad?

Cindell: we always have this conversation. To set the tent up or not to set the tent up.

And, uh, we like sleeping on our boats, especially in the summertime. It's the coolest place to be Sleeping under the stars is where I like to be. Boom.

Paddy: True or false River guides. Are the coolest, most hardcore, most athletic, best looking, ultimate outdoor archetype in the universe, and no one else comes close.

Cindell: That's usually our inside voice and the people we take down River believe all of that. So yes, that's true.

MUSIC FOR A BEAT

Paddy: you started in the Grand Canyon in the early eighties, so that's 40 plus river season. what number as a guide is this for you?

Cindell: that is a sensitive question. only because I cooked for Grand Canyon, Doris Martin Litton for approximately 10 years. I was a paid employee in those 10 years. And, uh, sometimes the cooks would lead [00:10:00] hikes while the Dory Guides moved their boats down around the corner, let's say from Tapeats Creek up and over Surprise Valley, down into Deer Creek's, prime example.

And so we would go take the people hiking and they would shuttle their boats down and around. So I believe I've been guiding since 1983. When did I get , my hands on the sticks for the first time as a paid guide. Somewhere in the early nineties I cooked and rowed. You didn't get paid for rowing, but you got paid for cooking?

Paddy: yeah.

Cindell: Working for Grand Canyon, Doris Martin Litten was a unique situation. Now, other companies in the eighties, like Oars George Wendt, he had female guides and they team cooked . And so everybody teamed up and rotated cooking. , My experience, that's how women got into the cockpit of a dory.

that's just how we entered. Into the scene since 1983. a naive 19-year-old.

Paddy: That is an insane amount of time to spend in the big ditch.

Does it feel special to have been down there for that [00:11:00] long and to continue to go back?

Cindell: It is a very precious part of my life and now, I treat every trip as if it's my first,

and I don't know if it's ever gonna, if it's gonna be my last

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Well, your first year in the Grand Canyon was 1983, which is a famous year in the lore of,

Cindell: Unbeknownst to me.

Paddy: right. Unbeknownst to you at the time. Right. It's a very famous year in river running. History. It was a Historic high water year that spawned both tragic boat flips and multiple speed runs through the Grand Canyon.

What about that first trip captured you and made you think, ah, yes, I wanna do this for the rest of my life?

Cindell: I met Roger in 1981 in October, and his brother Regan Dale. Took a lot of photographs in Grand Canyon and every family gathering, which there were many, because I had a really tight-knit family. we would watch slideshows, reels and reels of slideshows that Reagan would take. And I'm like, what is this place?

Well, do I get to go? [00:12:00] cause my parents, we camped, my father took us to every ghost town along the west coast in our little Ford, you know, dodge camper van. So being outdoors was easy for me, always in a swimming pool, always at the ocean, always in the mountains, , always playing in the dirt.

If it wasn't for the Dale family, I am not sure if I would have arrived where I am today.

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: So there's fate. And then there's ability and desire,

Paddy: Do you remember something specific during that first trip, where you were like, oh my God, this is, I need to come back? This?

Cindell: it was the white water.

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: Yeah, it was that big white water. But I didn't know any different,

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: But it was that piece of adrenaline out there that I crave. along with that was the camaraderie. That came with a, such a tight knit group, the community that you're embedded in down there for 16, 17, 18 days. And back in those days, uh, Martin did not do [00:13:00] exchanges, and we ran longer trips. , So you just became one with all of those people and that space, and you just went on this incredible journey.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: In addition to being a river guide, you are an onion of an outdoors person. You have many layers. , You're an all around mountain woman. You ski, presumably you hike and camp, and you do all of the other outdoor things. Of all the activities you can do outside, what are some of the things that you can only get from the river?

Cindell: well, there's that mental focus that comes with all extreme sports. Uh, but when you have other people's lives in your hands, in your dory running big whitewater in Grand Canyon, that is the most exhilarating, proud, accomplishment of all of my outdoor experiences.

Paddy: Is there a comparison with say perfect powder skiing and perfectly running rapids?

Cindell: Well, my husband and I are glassblowers and so glass blowing skiing, rock climbing. it is all that you think about. So, [00:14:00] skiing is like running rapids. 'cause you're not worried about the turn that you're in, you're wondering what's down river or downhill from you.

And so when you position your boat in that moment, in that wave, it's over. you're not even thinking about what's happening to you in that space. You're, concentrating on the very next move.

Paddy: And how does that relate to glass blowing?

Cindell: Every, uh, move you make accentuates either a positive or a negative outcome.

If your bubble is, gets outta center when you're blowing a piece, then your whole piece does a hula hoop. So everything's about being in center and staying in center and nailing

Paddy: if you hit a wave wrong or you hit a hole, the dory is doing a hula hoop. Oh,

Cindell: or a pirouette.

Paddy: I've had some hairball situations happen on skis, and I've also had to sit with the anticipatory fear and then the, in the moment reactive fear as a boater and a kayaker. Do you think river danger and fear is all its own thing? Or is there a comparison [00:15:00] to other mountains pursuits?

Cindell: Wow.

I try not to have fear, ' cause fear gets in the way of your performance. you can be nervous, you can be on edge, but as soon as you allow fear to set in and take control, then you're the worst case scenario is gonna transpire. So ideally, you don't allow fear to enter your thought process.. Always be humble.

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: Always, always, always be humble. and there's no such thing as a Saturday. You're down there 24 7, 15 nights, 16 days with all of these people. And so your performance, is your reality out there. So you don't have time for fear.

You can be nervous and when that thing starts to well up, you better listen to it.

it's not welling up because you're afraid it's welling up because you see what's happening in front of you and you know it's not gonna end well if you continue like that moment at Hance.

Paddy: Can you talk to me about a specific moment that you've had, where. You felt that fear swell up and you were on river and you were like, we're in the middle of a wave train.

[00:16:00] We cannot Eddie out right now. Like we have to just continue to move forward with the fear and also looking at this big, gnarly, scary thing that is in front of us.

Cindell: I just talk to my boat. I say, come on boat, come on Ticaboo, we can do it. , And then she and I just navigate. There was a moment down there at, uh, Nixon Rock on this last trip where I got pulled into this piece of water and we are gonna broadside this rock. And all of a sudden I pushed and pulled and we spun around the rock and we did a kayak, Eddie stop in this little micro Eddie with a 17 six foot boat.

And I didn't hit anything and I thought shit was going to hit the fan at that moment, and I was gonna crush my boat. And then all of a sudden it all worked out. I'm like, and everybody on the boat goes, I can't believe that just happened. I go, neither can I. Let's go down river,

Paddy:  you skirted the rock and then you snuck in behind it.

Cindell: because I pulled, I pivoted the boat to get away from the rock. And by pivoting the boat, those boats are like big [00:17:00] kayaks. It just eddied out behind the rock like a kayak. It was amazing.

Paddy: I can picture this in my head and I don't understand how that works,

Cindell: it took me about an hour to shake that off. So there's a fine line, as Jimmy Buffett says, between Saturday night and Sunday morning.

And so, yeah, I got, I would use the word lucky

Paddy:  Yeah.

Cindell: that moment. And I will run that little piece of water differently on my next trip.

Paddy: Oh, I'm sure.

Cindell: you know, we strive for perfection to deal with reality down there

Paddy: Oof.

Cindell: because you're not, it's not Disneyland and you are not on a cable. We always say that it's. Really hard to make it look easy. And it's really easy to make it look hard.

And sometimes you get a little bit of both, especially on that day, in that moment.

Paddy: How do you not just say like, you know what, that's it, I'm done. I don't wanna deal with that anymore.

How do you keep coming back to it?

Cindell: that's that, adrenaline. When it feels good, you have to remember those, that positive feeling like, okay, I nailed it.

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: You have to remember your [00:18:00] nailed it moments more than you remember your

Paddy: Oh shit moments.

Cindell: Yeah, those ones.

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Paddy: There's a lot of artistry, I think in Running Rivers, and it's one of the reasons why I am so enamored with it.

For example, reading water might be the definition of more art than science. How would you describe your skill at reading water

Cindell: well down there it's all about the water level. So your sweet spots change all the time based on the water level. That's the dynamic. That's what keeps you coming back because you get to have that adrenaline to try and find that sweet spot just because you find it on one trip doesn't mean you're gonna find it on the next trip.

Like passengers go, how come you never just run the rapid straight down river? we're always at a, what we call a 45, most of the time, 45 degree fairy angle. So we can actually change our mind or change our angle if we get hit by something that has a negative impact on our course.

I try [00:19:00] to tell people on a rapid called soc dollinger. Soc dollinger is defined by the first knockout of an old boxing match, where the guy just gets hammered on the first punch. And in the crux of that rapid, um, it's called the sock dollinger punch. So if you just run this crease of water, you're going to get totally annihilated in there.

But at 14,000 c cfs or above, there's the left wave just left of the crease. And I always say you run the right edge of the left wave, and sometimes you can run the gut of the left wave, but you better have enough water level because they'll see the bottom of your boat from downstream.

Paddy: Oh, it'll send you on wheelie.

Cindell: yes. You, you don't wanna endo, so there's a fine line there. So I always just hit the right side of that left wave, and we just get launched and we giggle and we miss the crease that hammers you.

Paddy: Do you think that ability to find the sweet spot on the water has helped you in aspects of your life off the river?

Cindell: [00:20:00] absolutely.

I was a PE teacher for 23 years, K 12, certified physical education, and my last assignment was down here in Ignacio, Colorado. It was a K three. grade level and who's now a very good friend of ours, Carl Hare. he was the first, uh, year principal in that building. And I was coming in as the elementary PE teacher.

And so we didn't know each other and I would come up to him with all of these issues and he's like, Ms. Dale, what hill do you wanna die on? Right? So that's your sweet spot. It's like, what do you wanna challenge in life?

Paddy: Hmm.

Cindell: and where's that actually gonna take you ultimately?

And is it worth it?

Paddy: Hmm.

Cindell: If you just focus on your sweet spots and like, what's your ultimate goal? And do you wanna be happy? Or do you wanna be right

Paddy: Oh God.

Cindell: and right? And then there's that.

Paddy: Oh yeah.

Cindell: That's a a life rule.

You know, there's all it's compromises out there in life,

Paddy: Do you feel like when you're on the river, you're finding it's a bit of a compromise with the river,

Cindell: she doesn't even know we exist down

Paddy: Yeah. Yeah,

Cindell: You know, she's just trying to get to the ocean [00:21:00] and she doesn't get there anymore because we use her up. so it's not her fault. Uh, you can't be mad at the river for your mistakes out there. It's your job as professional river guide whitewater technician to ATM. angle, timing, momentum,

Make sure you put the boat in the right place, at the right timing, at the right angle, , and then deal with reality. ' cause maybe you pop an, oar maybe a passenger low sides, you who knows anything can happen out there.

Paddy: so that's the life lesson, then

Cindell: Yes.

Paddy: Show up as best you can and then deal with reality.

Cindell: Yeah. Yeah.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: You. And your boat. The Ticaboo have been together for decades Now. Grand Canyon Guides are famously attached to their dories. The Ticaboo is your soulmate. Right?

Cindell: Yes.

Paddy: Ticaboo's, not equipment. She's a part of, yeah, right.

I've rowed a Dory only once before in my life.

And I absolutely loved it. I get the appeal , and I think I understand the deeper connection, but I have a bunch of questions about this. First, what makes a Dory so special?

Cindell: Their legacy if the [00:22:00] Dory could speak the stories that, she would tell would be mind boggling.

the Ticaboo has had, her licks and, she's been passed down. She was built in 1978. she's still has the same soul. She's had a few facelifts because we've redesigned the decks and such, but those people who have rowed the Ticaboo go, oh yeah, I know the Ticaboo.

They just have this personality. And Martin would assign boats to the Dory guides and that would be their boat. Like Regan Dale, was given the Dark Canyon,

Ellen Tibbets was given the music temple.

Dougle. Bremner has the Skagit. Brad Deek at the Columbine. So it becomes part of your soul down there. And I get really nervous when I know somebody else's has to row my boat sometimes, but. When, she went out on this last trip I just kind of rubbed her and I said, you take really good care, miss Emily.

Yes, it's an inanimate object, but she is really part of your [00:23:00] soul and it's your obligation to take care of her. Them as much as they take care of us, they're our home. They're our little wooden home. It's like a Japanese style. You take your shoes off, you respect it, you keep the sand off, and you're mindful of how you park them because they're very fragile.

Paddy: Doris are balletic in the water. That's how I see them. Right? They, they move beautifully. They look beautifully. They are also wooden and wood breaks on rocks, and the Colorado River has a lot of rocks, so why row these eggshells with oars?

Cindell: They're very, very responsive. Out there on the water. They dance on the water. They're a challenge. It's the challenge, I think, for me to be able to navigate through class five, four or five white water in a little wooden boat and bring her out at the bottom in one piece. They have a lot of history behind them. Martin brought those boats down to show people the fragility of the Grand Canyon, as the Sierra [00:24:00] Club entity to try and stop yet another dam being proposed. The Marble Canyon Dam site and just their legacy and their history. With the founder of Grand Canyon, Doris Martin Litton, that's

the best reason to row those boats down river is to keep their legacy and his legacy alive down there in Grand Canyon.

And, he asked, uh, George went, uh, back when he was ready to sell in 87, 88, they made, they had a partnership that George would keep the legacy alive down there in Grand Canyon. And Martin trusted him. And that's why we're still there today, because now George's sons, Tyler are carrying on that legacy.

It's a beautiful thing.

Paddy: PADDYO VO:

More from Cindell Dale after the break.

MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL MIDROLL

Something that is really intriguing to me is that. W with all of these trips that you've done in 40 plus years, countless, countless trips down the Grand Canyon, you've also spent decades within group dynamics as part of those river [00:25:00] trips.

So I'm wondering what you know about human beings that you could've only learned guiding boats down river.

Cindell: egos are fragile

Paddy: Hmm.

Cindell: and nobody wants to admit that your opinion is better

Paddy: Hmm.

Cindell: more reasonable than their decisions. And you just have to, uh, walk quietly and, actions speak louder than words out there.

Uh, there's a time and a place and I've been put in all the wrong places down there in Grand Canyon. So hopefully when I have an opinion, that opinion has some weight to it and they heed my advice.

Paddy: Do you think that when you speak up and give your advice, do you think the unspoken thing within the group, especially with the other guides, not just the clients do you think that they're like, well, we better shut the hell up because Cindell is talking right now, so our opinions don't matter.

Cindell: It depends on the crew. I kind of get a little ruffled around the edges. My somatotype, my gender, my years of [00:26:00] experience. I confuse people sometimes and some people just don't have a lot of faith in my ability to take them down river.

And I struggle with that a little bit. like a gentleman at Lees ferry, I go, hand me your backpack and I'll move it forward. You can sit in the front seat. He goes, well, that backpack's awfully heavy. I said, ah, the boat weighs two grand. Hop on in. You're not gonna make that big of a difference, you know,

would a man get that side remark? No. My husband would never get that side remark from a passenger.

Because he's six two and weighs 180 pounds. Yeah.

they Just wonder how in the heck this package can do that job in the same way that somebody 180 pounds can do the job.

Our crew, they know, and we used to sort of chuckle about it, but when you're standing on shore above lava falls and nobody wants to ride in your boat and they all wanna ride with the strong men, and it has happened my entire career, that hurts.

Actually, it pisses me [00:27:00] off.

Paddy: I would, yeah, I would imagine so. I mean, that's my next question, how frustrating is it to continue to run into the exact same thing over and over again do you want to shout at people?

How do you not shout at people and say like, i've been running boats down here since before you could wipe your up. You know, like, like what do you, what do you do in those situations?

Cindell: It's about their personal fears and you kind of have to respect their personal fears out there. and I just stand at my boat quietly, and it's ultimately the trip leader's responsibility to make sure that the boat loads are balanced for that particular day.

Paddy: So would you say then your operating mode is, uh, walks softly and carry a big stick?

Cindell: Kind of because it doesn't do you any good to be, snotty about it.

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: It just proves to them that that's what they're looking for.

Paddy: Well, your father once told you, never let anyone tell you that you're too little or because you're a girl [00:28:00] you can't set out to do anything in life, which I love that. Love your dad. You are

Cindell: I carry that with me.

Paddy: five foot three and have said that people don't understand how you do what you do on the river, performing at an elite level, and that that is your special talent.

Explain.

Cindell: That's what drives me actually. Uh.

Paddy: To prove people wrong?

Cindell: To prove to myself and to prove to those who question my ability. I just smile and nod. You know? It's like I don't know what else to do anymore in my career. 'cause I've already proven myself out there to the best of my ability. I think when that is so embedded in that human for so long, their entire life, they don't always see the light. The trip's not long enough for them to actually shake off all of that baggage that they've been carrying and the images that they have carried and been taught. You know, people are taught that behavior

Paddy: Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Cindell: that's a learned behavior.

Paddy: And it's hard to unteach

Cindell: it's not my [00:29:00] job to unteach it. It's just my job to do my job. And if you wanna come ride in my boat, you are more than welcome. it's only my job to provide them with a unique experience, a lifelong experience down there.

But there was this one moment where this person. Uh, just absolutely refused to ride my boat. And one day, and he goes, well, I guess you're stuck with me today. And at that point, I didn't really want him in my boat anymore.

'cause I was like, well, you're a rude person. You don't, you won't even ride with me. you must have a really small something, something down in the under to try and prove to yourself that

your machismo doesn't belong with me as pilot. So you go ahead, go ride wherever you wanna ride. I don't care.

, On that day that he actually went with me, I had disastrous runs. I'm like, you're a bad juju. I don't need you on my boat anymore.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: The gender barrier that you and others broke on the river happened in the eighties and early nineties, which isn't all that long ago in [00:30:00] the historical journey toward equality.

What was happening around you off the river at that time that encouraged and or discouraged you about that kind of macro cultural level journey that was happening in the canyon?

Cindell: I grew up as a tomboy. I was always racing the boys either on my skateboard or my bicycle, or played football with them up at the elementary school, and I went into high school. Doing sports and at in a regular physical education class, the girls sat on the sidelines while the boys played flag football back in the eighties.

And I just went, this is not okay. And so I vowed to become a physical education teacher, to go into that profession to make things more balanced between the two genders. And so I think that carries across to my river community.

Paddy: Tell me about what the gender dynamics were like on the river at that time. Did it feel like you were being impeded upon to getting toward your goal?

Cindell: The men had a lot of respect for the [00:31:00] women rowing those boats because they, they knew how challenging. The boats were for them. And my success is your success. Your success is my success.

There was, I'll just call them the one percenters. You know, they, and I'll just say that they had fragile egos and it didn't matter what gender, it happened on both sides of the fence.

because it was competitive out there and they didn't want somebody new coming in and taking their spot for one. And, like I have said before, I confuse people, there was a, a guide who said, I go, yeah, I think I've done cooking. I'm gonna, I'm gonna row. And he goes, well, he goes, well that, you know, that's an awfully big, it's 18 foot domar, right?

Awfully big boat. And it's awfully heavy. And I go, I know. I ride on those boats every day as a cook. I know exactly how big and exactly how heavy they are. And I go, I either will or I won't. And actions speak louder than words. See you down river, asshole.

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Georgie [00:32:00] Clark was the first female commercial raft guide in the Grand Canyon. You've said that she opened the door and now you and others keep that door open for other female guides.

Does that feel like a hefty responsibility or does it energize you? Has it gotten any easier over the years?

Cindell: it's not an obligation at all. it's an opportunity

You know, the young women just, you know, in their twenties and thirties, they're like, wow, you really had to do that to get to where you are today? And I'm like, well, yeah. they're like, well, I'm so thankful that you walked that walk for us.

Paddy: Hmm.

Cindell: And the equality is. Better out there in the river industry. Not that it was ever bad. It's not. There's no regret on how the female Dory guides of my generation and, as far as Ellen Tibbetts,, the very first Dory guide. There's no regret on how we got there.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: The specialness of the Grand Canyon as one of the natural wonders of the world is incredibly difficult to fully capture in [00:33:00] words.

However, I have to ask you to try. What makes the Grand Canyon so special?

Cindell: She's a very fragile place. , She is politicized, to the bottom of her Grand Canyon heart. We have overused her. it's really, really important to protect our natural world. You know, Martin Litton says. don't ever compromise your wilderness 'cause you'll never get it back. And that's, you know, it's happening in today's world.

Once you give up BLM land,

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: you're never gonna get it back So as human beings, as citizens of the United States of America, it is really crucial that we pay attention out there to what's happening to our wilderness corridor that connects not only us to our soul, but it also connects the wildlife.

Paddy: So the specialness of the Grand Canyon is, its fragility,

Cindell: We manipulate it in such a way it doesn't get to choose. It doesn't have a, it doesn't have a, we are, its voice. And so [00:34:00] that's the fragility of the Grand Canyon and the Colorado River as a natural wonder of the world.

Paddy: What makes traveling through the Grand Canyon via the Colorado River, 280 miles, 160 rapids, what makes that so special?

Cindell: The ode to slowness.

Paddy: Explain that.

Cindell: Okay, slow the fuck down. Right.

Paddy: Yeah,

Cindell: So back in my forties, I'm gonna be, I don't even know how old I'm gonna be this year. Back in my forties, I used to run with my shovel to go irrigate. And I'm like, Cindell, walk and irrigate, because you'll see more there. There's always gonna be irrigation to do. And so we can capture the Grand Canyon and the Colorado River just by sitting still sometimes.

And my favorite piece of water is when we float down river on a quiet moment, and you hear this little trickle of water hitting a rock and it's really loud, even though it's really little because we're paying attention.

I always ponder its quietness, [00:35:00] like, gosh, it does exist with or without us. The birds do the bird thing. The fish do the fish thing. The wildness is just doing its thing down there and we are just passing through

Paddy: And there's caves and cracks and slots in there, you know, endless shoots and ladders that who knows if a human eyeball have ever seen them. But whole, giant ecosystems are within those little, itty bitty things. When beauty exists for the sake of beauty, not because someone will behold it. That's by design, by some great other thing. And it blows my mind. It makes my heart feel good. To know that.

Cindell: yep. And I don't take a lot of pictures anymore, but, uh, we hiked up Buck Farm. I was really excited to camp at Buck Farm because I was hoping that there would still be orchids and Columbine up there, and there were, and I was like, yeah. And then we went all the way up to what we call the end.

And we had a moment as I love moments of silence because you need to listen to the desert, speak to you

Paddy: yeah,

Cindell: out there. And the toads [00:36:00] just started to sing once we STFU'd. Right? You can actually hear what's going on out in the wilderness. So I make a point on my trips to ask for that, and then people really appreciate it.

it's a challenge for some people to do that. It's very, makes people, uh, uncomfortable sometimes to be quiet.

Paddy: Oh, yeah.

Cindell: Um, but it's so valuable.

Paddy: There's something very sacred and soulfully special to me that something like that, a scene like that, a quiet like that exists before I show up to it and far after I leave it,

Cindell: if you don't go down into the bottom of the Grand Canyon on a river trip, you don't even get the opportunity to experience that moment down there. And I think that brings us back to your question

Paddy: Yeah.

Cindell: in a long, long journey with this answer is that. You could be up on the rim and get your 15 minute photo out there, but [00:37:00] you don't really know the depth of her soul until you enter into what we call the rabbit hole.

You know, going down into Allison Wonderland and going down into the rabbit hole and having those once in a lifetime experiences down, it changes your life. Changed my life.

Paddy: ugh. I, I'm gripping my chest my heart Cindell. Ugh.

Cindell: It's true. It's all true

Paddy: Yes.

Cindell: PAUSE PAUSE

You know, people ask me that all the time, like, what's your favorite part of the Grand Canyon? I go, well, I can show you my favorite part of this day

Paddy: yeah.

Cindell: in Grand Canyon when I can take that little boat down along the, red wall above a silver grotto. And the red wall is just a sheer wall looking up at you and there's little scoops, a thousand million scoops I call it, of carving, you know, the secret water of knowledge, that carving of the water in red wall, and you can just skirt right along.

In that moment and watch lizards climb around on the rock eating [00:38:00] bugs. There is no one special moment out there we just enjoy each other's company,

Paddy: when Martin Litton first put Doris on the Colorado for commercial trips, he did it with a hope that's showing people. The Grand Canyon, by Dory specifically, would spark in them this passion for preserving that wild landscape and hopefully all wild landscapes.

Have you seen that in clients during your trips?

Cindell: Absolutely.

, They quiet down. , They stop. They start to listen. To the outside world. They are humbled and if they cry at the end of the trip and give you a long hug and just embrace the experience that you had. And they come back,

we had a good friend. She's a good friend now. She's a really cool lady. Amy Bonner is A-W-N-B-A official. and she came down as a passenger and she was leaving at Phantom Ranch. She dropped, she's tough. She's a ref out on the basketball courts

So she drops to her knees at Phantom Ranch and she starts crying. She's [00:39:00] like, what is wrong with me? She goes, I don't cry. I go, well, we gotcha., She goes, how do I get back? How do I come back? And so she has come back as we have these assistant slots down there, you come back as a helper, swamper, whatever you wanna call it.

And she's been back a few times because she just let it go.

Paddy: like

Cindell: when you can bring them into your world and share your world with them, that is the moment we all strive for.

Paddy: People have inhabited the Grand Canyon for at least 10,000 years, but there's evidence to suggest that it's likely even further back than that. The Grand Canyon is a cosmic spiritual experience. When you take in all of its splendor and when you do, you can feel all of those thousands of years of people interacting and living in unison with a place that is as old as the earth.

That is what I feel. That is what I believe. When you think of this and your time in the grand, where do you fit in this big, gigantic timeline of people and place?

Cindell: As an interpreter [00:40:00] and to have to be that voice for those ancient ones. they will return, the Native American, the ancient puebloans, , they haven't left. They still exist there.

Their spirits live there. And I know that they exist because there are moments like I'm rowing down river and I hear this drumming and it's not the water pounding on the shoreline. It is this. Thumping in some of these places that you need to pay attention to. 'cause it's real out there.

Paddy: Hmm.

Cindell: There is spirituality in Grand Canyon and there are many gods and goddesses who speak to us if you choose to open up and listen.

, You gotta listen to those things

Paddy: so without all these years as a guide all these years in the Grand Canyon, what would your life look like? What has the Grand Canyon given you?

Cindell: Whoa. That's a deep question. The Grand Canyon, I believe, has given me the opportunity to find my authentic self.

I had the opportunity as a child to live that outdoor life.

[00:41:00] And then as a professional, I still get to live that outdoor life in one of the biggest playgrounds in the United States of America.

Paddy: It's just been decades and decades of fun.

Cindell: decades of fun. It just, it just screams in our soul all winter long. All we do is talk about rapids and, you know, wait for the schedule to come out and fill out the schedule and then ah, get to see who we get to go boating with.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: It is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without.

Cindell: I'm gonna have to say that helmet.

Paddy: Really?

Cindell: ski, it keeps me warm and I can hit trees and anything can happen in a helmet. When I'm in Grand Canyon, I can dip it in the water and it keeps my head cool and cool. Calm and collected out there and it's safe

Paddy: All right. Good call. Good call. Although I am shocked that you, uh, aren't just saying the Ticaboo but

Cindell: Well, she's a given. Yeah.

Paddy: Best outdoor snack.

Cindell: Pepper jack, cheese sticks or regular mozzarella. 'cause they're already in a little seal a meal bag. You stick 'em in your life Jack [00:42:00] pocket and it's seven grams of protein.

Paddy: Booya, what is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Cindell: No matter what happens to you out there in Grand Canyon and these beautiful little dory boats, stay in the boat.

Paddy: Good call. Good call.

Cindell: just stay in the boat.

Paddy: I wouldn't call that a super hot, hot take. Just solid. Solid advice though.

Cindell: That's all I got.

Paddy: Yeah. All you got is solid advice and years of wisdom. Just that

Cindell: Hahaha!

Paddy: MUSIC

PADDY VO:

Cindell Dale is a professional  Grand Canyon river guide. If you'd like her to guide you down the magical spiritual vortex of the Big Ditch, check out her trips with OARS Whitewater Rafting. -- and let me know, cause I wanna come too! -- You can watch Cindell's jawdropping skills and learn about the history of the female river runners of the Grand Canyon in the amazing new documentary she stars in, "About Damn Time." Find it on YouTube or on �����ԹϺ���TV.

And, remember you b-e-a-utiful listeners you, we want [00:43:00] to hear from ya. Email your pod reactions, guest nominations, mustache shampooing tips, and whatever else you want to tell and/or ask us to �����ԹϺ��� Podcast At �����ԹϺ��� Inc Dot Com.

The �����ԹϺ��� Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "i grew up in a liberal suburb of boston, we invented lettering in drama bro" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. And booking and research by Maren Larsen.

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